Red Dot VS. Scope - choice for AR-15

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bblhd672
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Re: Red Dot VS. Scope - choice for AR-15

#16

Post by bblhd672 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 12:38 pm

maverick2076 wrote:
bblhd672 wrote:
cyphertext wrote:
bblhd672 wrote:When I saw this thread I was hoping it would answer my "what optic should I put on my M&P15 Sport?" question.

While I now know more, I'm no closer to an answer for what to purchase. I've been looking at a few RDS and scopes, pretty much decided the stuff under $100 won't last or even work decently. But I don't have the means to make multiple purchase of hundreds of dollars each to determine what works. So many pros and cons to consider.

Thanks for everyone's input on this subject.
It really depends on what type of shooting you will be participating in. Run and gun where time is key and a hit on a steel gong is a hit calls for red dot.

Shooting from the bench trying to make one ragged hole at 100 yards is scope.
Primary reason for wanting an optic is home defense, close quarter battle. To be able to get quick on moving target.
That's a red dot all the way then. For the money, I highly recommend the Primary Arms Micro Dot. 2 MOA dot, size of an Aimpoint T1, NV compatible, and a 50k hour battery life. with a mount it is right at $200, and it is a lot of optic for the money. If you wait a few weeks, you can probably get your hands on their new micro dot that is being put out in conjunction with Holosun. Same micro dot, same battery life, but with their ACSS reticle, which has a CQB horseshoe, aiming chevron, BDC, and ranging ability. $220 with the mount. I'll be picking one up as soon as it is available.
Cool, thanks. I signed up to get notified when this is in stock. The Meprol Tru Dot looked good too, but more than I want to spend first time out.
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Re: Red Dot VS. Scope - choice for AR-15

#17

Post by maverick2076 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 1:33 pm

IMO, Primary Arms makes some of the best bang for your buck optics out there. I have a few red dots from them, plus their 1-6x scope, and they have all been reliable, held zero, and performed much better that you would expect for the price point.

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Re: Red Dot VS. Scope - choice for AR-15

#18

Post by Lynyrd » Wed Aug 24, 2016 2:04 pm

puma guy wrote: He wants to use it for hogs and anticipates shots from 75-150 yards.
In the last 10 years I have killed over 500 hogs. Why so many? Because they tear up everything they encounter around my house. It gets dang frustrating when the root up the yard, destroy a drainage ditch, or rough up a pasture so bad you can't mow it. I have a feeder about 75 yds from the house with a light on it. They come at night to the feeder, and when i see them out the window, I get a rifle and kill as many as I can.

At first I was using one of my standard bolt action rifles, but when 15 show up and you only get 1, time after time, I started thinking there has got to be a better way. Remember, it's night time and they can run out of the light before the muzzle flash fades. So, I rigged up a .556 AR with an EoTech and a tactical light. I practiced at night using some old bow targets, with the emphasis on fast target acquisition. I don't care if they die 100 yards away. I'm not trying to recover the animal. In fact, it's a lot easier for me if they do run off and die in the woods rather than me having to drag them off right before bed time.

After the first shot, you get about 2 seconds before they all disappear into the brush near my feeder. I can now consistently shoot 2 to 3 hogs, and occasionally 4 before they get to the brush. I could never do that with any kind of magnification. Shooting with both eyes open, you bring the red dot to the target you have already acquired with your eyes. You don't move the gun around looking to find the target in your scope. With practice, you can get pretty fast.

Please don't think I'm exaggerating on the number of hogs I kill. This summer, just for giggles, I started marking them on a calendar. Since June 1st I have killed 32 hogs with this set up. All from my front porch, and all between sundown and 10:00 PM. They don't come every night, and sometimes they will skip a week or so.

Tell that to your friend. Of course, if he is only going hog hunting occasionally, and wants to keep the meat, then I would use a scope.
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Re: Red Dot VS. Scope - choice for AR-15

#19

Post by Abraham » Wed Aug 24, 2016 2:27 pm

Lynyrd,

If you're close enough for buckshot, you could potentially kill a whole bunch even if they're on the run if you're shotgun is a semi-auto.

Just a thought...


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Re: Red Dot VS. Scope - choice for AR-15

#20

Post by rotor » Wed Aug 24, 2016 2:31 pm

Lynyrd wrote:
puma guy wrote: He wants to use it for hogs and anticipates shots from 75-150 yards.
In the last 10 years I have killed over 500 hogs. Why so many? Because they tear up everything they encounter around my house. It gets dang frustrating when the root up the yard, destroy a drainage ditch, or rough up a pasture so bad you can't mow it. I have a feeder about 75 yds from the house with a light on it. They come at night to the feeder, and when i see them out the window, I get a rifle and kill as many as I can.

At first I was using one of my standard bolt action rifles, but when 15 show up and you only get 1, time after time, I started thinking there has got to be a better way. Remember, it's night time and they can run out of the light before the muzzle flash fades. So, I rigged up a .556 AR with an EoTech and a tactical light. I practiced at night using some old bow targets, with the emphasis on fast target acquisition. I don't care if they die 100 yards away. I'm not trying to recover the animal. In fact, it's a lot easier for me if they do run off and die in the woods rather than me having to drag them off right before bed time.

After the first shot, you get about 2 seconds before they all disappear into the brush near my feeder. I can now consistently shoot 2 to 3 hogs, and occasionally 4 before they get to the brush. I could never do that with any kind of magnification. Shooting with both eyes open, you bring the red dot to the target you have already acquired with your eyes. You don't move the gun around looking to find the target in your scope. With practice, you can get pretty fast.

Please don't think I'm exaggerating on the number of hogs I kill. This summer, just for giggles, I started marking them on a calendar. Since June 1st I have killed 32 hogs with this set up. All from my front porch, and all between sundown and 10:00 PM. They don't come every night, and sometimes they will skip a week or so.

Tell that to your friend. Of course, if he is only going hog hunting occasionally, and wants to keep the meat, then I would use a scope.
Do you ever harvest the meat? I have a Leupold VX-R Hog 1.25-4 but haven't had it out in the field yet. Has the illuminated dot and the advantage of a scope. Sounds like a good combo.


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Re: Red Dot VS. Scope - choice for AR-15

#21

Post by mrvmax » Wed Aug 24, 2016 2:39 pm

Ive seen videos of guys over seas using Aimpoints to hunt wild boar and they make some amazing shots. I do not recall which Aimpoint it was, it was not the common ones we see in the US but they are remarkable shots with them. Every shot I saw was with the boars moving.
I've used a cheap red dot for hunting feral hogs and shot one at 60 yards with my 300 AAC AR and it worked well but I prefer a 1-4 or 1-6 power scope at a minimum - but that's just me.

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Re: Red Dot VS. Scope - choice for AR-15

#22

Post by Lynyrd » Wed Aug 24, 2016 2:50 pm

rotor wrote: Do you ever harvest the meat?.
Yes I do, but only when the weather is cool, and my deep freeze or a friends deep freeze is getting low. Since I can bee choosy, I only eat the ones that are 80 lbs and under. And then, I will set the traps so that I can decide when to clean them.
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Re: Red Dot VS. Scope - choice for AR-15

#23

Post by jason812 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 3:10 pm

Lynyrd wrote:
puma guy wrote: He wants to use it for hogs and anticipates shots from 75-150 yards.
In the last 10 years I have killed over 500 hogs. Why so many? Because they tear up everything they encounter around my house. It gets dang frustrating when the root up the yard, destroy a drainage ditch, or rough up a pasture so bad you can't mow it. I have a feeder about 75 yds from the house with a light on it. They come at night to the feeder, and when i see them out the window, I get a rifle and kill as many as I can.

At first I was using one of my standard bolt action rifles, but when 15 show up and you only get 1, time after time, I started thinking there has got to be a better way. Remember, it's night time and they can run out of the light before the muzzle flash fades. So, I rigged up a .556 AR with an EoTech and a tactical light. I practiced at night using some old bow targets, with the emphasis on fast target acquisition. I don't care if they die 100 yards away. I'm not trying to recover the animal. In fact, it's a lot easier for me if they do run off and die in the woods rather than me having to drag them off right before bed time.

After the first shot, you get about 2 seconds before they all disappear into the brush near my feeder. I can now consistently shoot 2 to 3 hogs, and occasionally 4 before they get to the brush. I could never do that with any kind of magnification. Shooting with both eyes open, you bring the red dot to the target you have already acquired with your eyes. You don't move the gun around looking to find the target in your scope. With practice, you can get pretty fast.

Please don't think I'm exaggerating on the number of hogs I kill. This summer, just for giggles, I started marking them on a calendar. Since June 1st I have killed 32 hogs with this set up. All from my front porch, and all between sundown and 10:00 PM. They don't come every night, and sometimes they will skip a week or so.

Tell that to your friend. Of course, if he is only going hog hunting occasionally, and wants to keep the meat, then I would use a scope.
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Re: Red Dot VS. Scope - choice for AR-15

#24

Post by Skiprr » Wed Aug 24, 2016 3:35 pm

Just a general comment. I think hybrid setups are more common now than ever before. First, with the development of red dot and holo sights came the common practice of including co-witnessed iron sights...arguably a hybrid arrangement. Slapping an EOTech on a fixed-sight patrol rifle (or M4gery) worked just fine because no matter the condition of the EOTech--on, off, or busted through-and-through--you could still see and use the irons. And I'm an old-school believer in always having BUIS on any variant of a "modern sporting rifle."

Today, there are all manner of mix-and-match hybrid configurations. I've never been much of a long-range shooter...well, not at all. A hit on a big steel plate at 200 yards made me happy. And I'm not a hunter. So every rifle I had was setup for CQB; the only concession for anything longer were flip-to-side magnifiers for red dots. But a while ago I decided I had plenty of 5.56 sporting rifles configed for near-range, and that I was doing an AR-10-type platform a disservice by not letting it reach distances more suitable to it.

Already had Troy flip-up irons on it, and those stayed. Bought a Vortex HS LR for it, and put that on an American Defense quick-release 20-MOA elevating mount. If the scope gets mangled, it can come off with the throw of two levers. Bought a little Weaver 45-degree offset picatinny mount, put it just forward of the ejector port on the right side (I'm right-handed, right eye dominant), and stuck a Burris FastFire on it. Zeroed the red dot at 25 yards, and the scope at 100 yards.

This sort of micro red dot canted off a magnified optic is pretty common in 3-gun competitions, but it's the first time I'd tried it. Mind you, this .308 rifle is not light...already had a Harris bipod and the honkin' scope just added to that. Transitioning from scope to red dot proved to be very quick and pretty instinctive (from a practical shooting perspective, the only thing that will require practice is making sure I articulate my right wrist and not swing my right elbow out when I tilt the rifle). Red dot to scope took fractionally longer simply because of hitting proper eye relief. Sight transition would be even easier with a lighter rifle in 5.56.

I may be getting closer to thinking this might be my preferred general configuration going forward. With newer generations of variable low-power glass, you still need to make a manual adjustment if you want to go from, say, 1x to 6x. A small red dot hanging to the side frees you to keep a scope set at a reasonable magnification (e.g., 4x, 6x) and then switch back and forth almost instantly--without your hands ever leaving their master grip--from 1x, no eye-relief, both eyes open for a close-up or fast-moving target, to a magnified view of a longer-distance, slower-moving target. I'm understanding why 3-gunners like this setup. ;-)
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Re: Red Dot VS. Scope - choice for AR-15

#25

Post by AJSully421 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 3:48 pm

I have a bunch of different optics. I have had an Eotech, didn't like it. I have two Aimpoint ML3 2 Moa, an Aimpoint T1 micro 4 Moa, an ACOG 4x chevron with a LED lit reticle, and two bushnell scopes at 10 and 12 max power.

The 12x is on my Sig 716 .308. Aside from that... The ACOG is by far the most useful optic that I have. I can sight in for the feeder at 100y and then be on at the other feeder at 290 yards. The only down side is the cost and shooting inside CQB distances... But then just open your other eye and put the blob of the reticle on your target and fire a couple times. It is nice to have the 4x so I can see my target clearly.

The Aimpoints ML3s are the most versatile. Zero for 50, also approximate zero for 200. Hold "one dot down" at 100, and then I can hit a 12" steel plate out to 300 with "one dot high, and at 400 by holding "two dots high", and bring that all the way in to bad breath range. The red dot is also the fastest to get on target with.

The micro is on a 12" SBR.

If I didn't want to spend $1,200 and want an optic that would increase your ability to hit targets within practical ranges (25-300 yards), then an Aimpoint 2 Moa red dot cannot be beat. Nothing wrong with the PRO or the ACO models if you are on a budget.
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Re: Red Dot VS. Scope - choice for AR-15

#26

Post by The Annoyed Man » Wed Aug 24, 2016 4:59 pm

AJSully421 wrote:I have a bunch of different optics. I have had an Eotech, didn't like it. I have two Aimpoint ML3 2 Moa, an Aimpoint T1 micro 4 Moa, an ACOG 4x chevron with a LED lit reticle, and two bushnell scopes at 10 and 12 max power.

The 12x is on my Sig 716 .308. Aside from that... The ACOG is by far the most useful optic that I have. I can sight in for the feeder at 100y and then be on at the other feeder at 290 yards. The only down side is the cost and shooting inside CQB distances... But then just open your other eye and put the blob of the reticle on your target and fire a couple times. It is nice to have the 4x so I can see my target clearly.

The Aimpoints ML3s are the most versatile. Zero for 50, also approximate zero for 200. Hold "one dot down" at 100, and then I can hit a 12" steel plate out to 300 with "one dot high, and at 400 by holding "two dots high", and bring that all the way in to bad breath range. The red dot is also the fastest to get on target with.

The micro is on a 12" SBR.

If I didn't want to spend $1,200 and want an optic that would increase your ability to hit targets within practical ranges (25-300 yards), then an Aimpoint 2 Moa red dot cannot be beat. Nothing wrong with the PRO or the ACO models if you are on a budget.
I agree that the Micro is good for those kinds of ranges, and I love mine. The problem is the age and condition of my eyeballs! I can see well enough to drive without my glasses - although I don't - but I can't see enough detail on a target past about 50-75 yards to ethically take a shot without magnification. OTH, I flat LOVE my ACOG, and everything you said about it is spot on. And what you're describing with the both eyes open technique is that "Bindon Aiming Concept" (BAC).
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Re: Red Dot VS. Scope - choice for AR-15

#27

Post by techenigma » Wed Aug 24, 2016 5:14 pm

I've never been a fan of scopes on ARs unless of course it is a DMR/Long range setup. Of course in that I'd be on an AR10 platform, not AR15.
I have a Vortex Spitfire 3x on one, used to have an EOtech on one, and an ACOG with an RMR on top. For the money I'm very pleased with the Spitfire. Good for some intermediate distance, and functional in CQ. The ACOG is a great setup, but pretty spendy IMO.


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Re: Red Dot VS. Scope - choice for AR-15

#28

Post by SHogun62 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 5:34 pm

On my AR15 I run an EOTech Gen 3 holographic with the 3x magnifier behind it. For the purposes of the AR15 being in my arsenal, it works. Now once I get my AR10, and set that up as my DMR/Range platform, I'll probably go with the Nikon 308 scope. All we had when I was in the service were the ACOGs, and I never could wrap my head around the value of an illuminated reticle during the day, but not illuminated at night due to the solar power supply. I understand they make battery powered variants as well now, but I don't feel the urge to fork out the kind of money they are asking for.


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Re: Red Dot VS. Scope - choice for AR-15

#29

Post by Medley86 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 8:32 pm

Tried out a red dot on my 10-22 when I first got it, not enough precision for my liking, so I ended up buying a 3x9 and putting on it, not a very expensive one but it works. When I got my AR15 I never even thought of a RDS got a Burris 3x9 multi reticle and have never looked back. 16" bull barrel it will shoot some very nice groups with that set up.
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Re: Red Dot VS. Scope - choice for AR-15

#30

Post by montgomery » Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:06 pm

Given the overall optic ruggedness and long battery life with modern red dots, holographic, and scopes, what is the opinion on running no iron sights versus folding sights versus fixed front / folding rear for a fighting / training carbine?

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