Help me understand something

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Skiprr
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Re: Help me understand something

#16

Post by Skiprr » Sat Mar 25, 2017 12:29 pm

puma guy wrote:Habitual behavior can become so automatic that the mind assumes it is done.
This.

Other than complete idiocy--like the story this week out of Houston where two young men were killed by the same gun supposedly because it "accidentally" went off all on its own--administrative handling of firearms is going to be the time you're more at risk for a negligent discharge than any other. We may not believe we can become complacent, or be distracted to the point that safety might be compromised, but the odds--and the bell curve--are not in our favor.

If I count press-checks, administrative clearing (not counting double-checking when clearing), cleaning, and function checks...I just did a rough estimate and came up with between 350 and 400 administrative handling instances per month; call it 350 to low-ball it. That's at least 4,200 instances per year; 42,000 per decade. Or about 46,200 instances just since I've been a member of this Forum. A single ND during that time would mean an event that happened only 0.00216% of the time. Less than minuscule. And totally unacceptable.

Extrapolate that over a lifetime of gun ownership (imagine what the number is for an FFL or gunsmith!), and it's pretty clear the odds are not in my favor. A single ND is absolutely disastrous, and if I include live-fire practice and training in the numbers, I have thousands and thousands of possible instances every single year.

One way to help mitigate complacency and/or distraction is the establishment of patterns of behavior from which your never deviate. And it's a matter of cost vs. risk vs. reward.

It doesn't cost me much effort to make certain that all ammunition is physically separate from a firearm (or magazine) if I'm going to clean it, work on it, or dry-fire it. Doesn't take much effort, and it's an easy pattern to establish. Doesn't have to be a different room, but it does have to be physically separate and not within reach from the activity I'm performing; for me, though, unless it's a quick clean at the range or something similar, it does mean a different room because walking a few yards costs me nothing.

May sound silly, but in addition to always treating all firearms as if they are loaded, I actually tell myself--out loud if I'm at home or alone--if I change the condition of a firearm. Always the same words: "This gun is loaded," or "This gun is unloaded." A press-check before holstering in the morning: "This gun is loaded." Before cleaning, gunsmithing, or dry-firing, I'll clear, move live ammo to a different location, clear again, then: "This gun is unloaded." I know it seems stupid, but again, it costs me nothing and it's another patterned step that brings my focus to the here and now by announcing, with a declarative statement, my recognition of the confirmed state of the firearm. Takes zero effort and zero time, but might offer a big reward by possibly preventing an ND.
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Re: Help me understand something

#17

Post by Jusme » Sat Mar 25, 2017 12:49 pm

I don't carry the,ammo to a different room, but it gets put in either ammo boxes, or trays in my range bag which is then closed and moved off of the table. I then check, double check, and triple check whichever gun I am cleaning. I really never thought about it being a habit, or ritual, until my wife asked me one time why I kept looking to make sure it was unloaded. She said it reminded her of Monk the detective on tv.
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Re: Help me understand something

#18

Post by cmgee67 » Sat Mar 25, 2017 1:12 pm

Another thing. I have never understood why a press check is needed. To me it isn't. If you know you left the gun loaded before you went to be and it hasn't been fired then why check in the morning and at night. If I want to know glock is loaded I can physically see the extractor poking out and if you look you can even see the brass in the chamber.

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Re: Help me understand something

#19

Post by The Annoyed Man » Sat Mar 25, 2017 1:48 pm

For me at least, putting the magazine and ammunition somewhere else, even if it is in the same room but on another table or something, is a fail safe just in case I have an inattentive moment. I actually HAVE experienced an ND. ONE. With a .44 magnum inside my bedroom. It scared me into absolute compliance with safety rules ever since. I have no problem admitting that my ND happened because I was distracted and did not pay sufficient attention to whether or not the gun was fully unloaded.....it still had one round in the cylinder, and the 5 that I had dumped into my hand looked like 6. It was a stupid, Stupid, STUPID mistake that I'll never repeat again. I had just dumped the 5 rounds on the bed next to me. If I had taken the time to get up and go set them down somewhere else, I might have had a second opportunity to notice that it was only 5, and not the 6 I thought I was holding when I set them down.

My answer to why ought one separate the ammunition from the gun by enough distance to eliminate a problem is say that the question is akin to asking "why do you rack the slide more than once and then visually and with a finger inspect it to make sure the gun is clear?" The answer is: "we do it more than once and then confirm that the chamber is clear with our eyes and our finger, because it only takes a couple of seconds, and it double, triple, and quadruple checks that the gun is clear. Then nobody accidentally shoots himself, his wife, his child, or one of his grandkids.

Until you've actually experienced an ND (and I hope you never do), you can't possibly know how horrifying those first seconds are until you can confirm that you've not shot yourself or anyone else. God help you if you have shot someone.
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Re: Help me understand something

#20

Post by The Annoyed Man » Sat Mar 25, 2017 1:50 pm

cmgee67 wrote:Another thing. I have never understood why a press check is needed. To me it isn't. If you know you left the gun loaded before you went to be and it hasn't been fired then why check in the morning and at night. If I want to know glock is loaded I can physically see the extractor poking out and if you look you can even see the brass in the chamber.
Press checks are needed because they look cool in the movies.....especially when press-checking a Glock sounds like your cocking a Single Action Army Colt. :mrgreen:
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Re: Help me understand something

#21

Post by Mxrdad » Sat Mar 25, 2017 2:01 pm

I guess you could say my ammo is in another part of the house, but that doesnt mean on the opposite end of the house. I clean em at the kitchen table and the ammo is on the bar about 10 ft away. I always, always remove ammo from magazine and firearm and leave the ammo on the bar. I then take mag and pistol to the table for cleaning. My Ruger LC9s requires mag to be in to dry fire. After cleaning, I'll check the firearm to ensure it works as intended, then load the magazine, and like mentioned above, my saying is "Pistol Hot". It then goes in the holster and put up.

I would make a suggestion when cleaning; Leave your cell phone in another room and leave it alone while cleaning. Multi-tasking while cleaning is distracting and just injects unneeded potential missteps.
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Re: Help me understand something

#22

Post by Skiprr » Sat Mar 25, 2017 3:23 pm

The Annoyed Man wrote:
cmgee67 wrote:Another thing. I have never understood why a press check is needed. To me it isn't. If you know you left the gun loaded before you went to be and it hasn't been fired then why check in the morning and at night. If I want to know glock is loaded I can physically see the extractor poking out and if you look you can even see the brass in the chamber.
Press checks are needed because they look cool in the movies.....especially when press-checking a Glock sounds like your cocking a Single Action Army Colt. :mrgreen:
And you can do it multiple times so it sounds even cooler and really shows you mean business. :mrgreen:

Seriously, though...

A) I was taught umpteen tears ago that if a firearm is not in your immediate possession and has been out of your sight, you do not know its condition; that you have to confirm that condition (think of Schrodinger's cat). Goes back to the no-shortcuts of administrative handling. If I have to leave a pistol in the lockbox in the truck to go into a 30.06 establishment, I'll still do a press check before reholstering...and then tell myself, "This gun is loaded." Measure twice, cut once.

B) Wherever and whenever possible, I'm a big believer in trying to standardize practices across platforms. Think of the SEALs' maxim, "One mind, any weapon." Whether I'm grabbing a 1911, a Glock, an AR, a knife, a stick, or going empty hand I want as much about the deployment to be the same as is humanly possible. For example, that's one reason I never favored adopting a full isosceles stance for handgun shooting: you'd never approach empty-hand or blade combatives that way. And basic stoppage clearance procedures should be essentially the same for any magazine-fed firearm. Some guns have loaded chamber indicators, some don't. I don't have enough brain cells to expend trying to change the way I handle one versus the other.

The old battlefield pickup drill comes to mind. Farnam does this in one of his advanced courses at nighttime, as part of low-light training in order to remove most visual cues. The class is kept well away from the line, where there's a table with a dozen different types of handguns that an instructor sets up between each CoF in various states of readiness and manufactured stoppages. On the timer, you have to get two hits on target with each gun. If your handling is gun-specific rather than cross-platform generalized, you can almost be guaranteed your time will be embarrassingly close to the bottom of the class.

C) A loaded chamber indicator is a nicety, but it's still a mechanical device and the possibility of failure exists. I completely ignore loaded chamber indicators in all their varieties. Maybe the only thing worse than an ND is being in dire need of your handgun and getting a click--or nothing at all--instead of a bang. When clearing a gun I--and I assume most--am not willing to bet my life or the lives of others only on a loaded chamber indicator as proof positive that the gun is unloaded and safe. By corollary, I would never trust defense of my life or the lives of others only on a loaded chamber indicator as proof positive that the gun is ready to fire.
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Re: Help me understand something

#23

Post by cmgee67 » Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:02 pm

Skiprr wrote:
The Annoyed Man wrote:
cmgee67 wrote:Another thing. I have never understood why a press check is needed. To me it isn't. If you know you left the gun loaded before you went to be and it hasn't been fired then why check in the morning and at night. If I want to know glock is loaded I can physically see the extractor poking out and if you look you can even see the brass in the chamber.
Press checks are needed because they look cool in the movies.....especially when press-checking a Glock sounds like your cocking a Single Action Army Colt. :mrgreen:
And you can do it multiple times so it sounds even cooler and really shows you mean business. :mrgreen:


lol these cracked me up it's always the tacticool guys on YouTube of do it that get me goin lol

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Re: Help me understand something

#24

Post by G26ster » Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:14 pm

Or, one can always follow this FIRST Standing Order:

Standing Orders, Rogers' Rangers
(Major Robert Rogers, 1759)

1. Don't Forget Nothing! :mrgreen:

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Re: Help me understand something

#25

Post by Noggin » Sun Mar 26, 2017 1:34 pm

I have never done a "press check" on a pistol. If I am in any way unsure about the condition of my pistol then I will fully clear it and reload it. I just now tried out doing a press check on my baby eagle and guess what it put the hammer into "half cock"!!!! That suggests to me that with some weapons a press check only adds another form of risk. I will continue to practice what I previously said.
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Re: Help me understand something

#26

Post by rotor » Sun Mar 26, 2017 3:41 pm

cmgee67 wrote:I have seen over and over and over and over again people saying when you clean your gun or simply take it apart you should have your ammunition and magazine in a complete separate part of the house than you are. Now before you jump on me and try and tell me why you think it is and act like I do not do that I do. I have always been taught to keep them totally separated. But if you think about it why is it necessary? If we truly believe that our guns will not go off unless the trigger is pulled why do we have the mind set of the magazine or just one round will all of a sudden jump into the gun and fire? If you set the mag and rounds to the side on the other end of the bench I am pretty sure nothing's going to happen unless you Consciously pick it up and load it. Now if you don't realize you are doing that maybe you need to reevaluate some things. But just curious on yalls thoughts.
I personally think this is excessive but if it works for you that's fine. If I am working with an automatic I remove the mag, check to make sure the gun is unloaded, if I am going to clean the mag I unload it but I don't take the cartridges and put them in another room. Right on the table is fine. With a revolver I confirm that the gun is empty and if not I put the cartridges on the table, check them to make sure length looks reasonable and they may go back in the revolver or in a cartridge box after the gun is clean. I realize that "to err is human" but I am very conscientious about how I handle my firearms and how I clean them. I do know how to check to see if a firearm is loaded or not. If I don't I shouldn't have a firearm. Obviously though for some people this is a problem as some manufacturers brag that their guns can be disassembled without pulling the trigger first.

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