Interesting Psychology: Open Carry & The Weapons Effect

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Jusme
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Re: Interesting Psychology: Open Carry & The Weapons Effect

#16

Post by Jusme » Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:52 am

TexasTornado wrote:Please note, this effect is ONLY documented when subjects are already in a state of agitation. It has not been found to apply when just having normal conversations or when not already otherwise in an agitated/angered state.

Personally the reporter's opinions and interjections are completely irrelevant to me, it was just the first article I found on the topics presented in class. The relevant information in my opinion is the findings of the studies themselves and the idea that violence, once initiated, may escalate more quickly with a pistol visible.

I think that the time frames, that these tests were conducted, is telling. In the mid 60's race riots, police brutality against minorities, was prevalent, or at least featured greatly on the nightly news. I would assume these tests were performed at colleges and universities, where the attitude towards the only known openly armed people, the police, was acrimonious at best. The next set was done right after the Vietnam war ended, where attitudes toward the soldiers sent to fight, was very poor, for the most part, again because of news reports. As I said, there is no data, on the people involved in the studies,, including their perceptions, or experiences during that time.
The other studies listed, like the one stating that people carrying guns in their vehicles, are more aggressive, was based on a telephone sampling, again with no true indication, nor verification of honesty among the respondents.
I am not a psychologist, nor even a scientist, but I am always more suspicious, of studies, that only seem to focus, on a particular item, and especially guns, without a more comprehensive psychological breakdown, of the test subjects. JMHO
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Re: Interesting Psychology: Open Carry & The Weapons Effect

#17

Post by parabelum » Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:54 am

What a academic rubbish.

"Guns not only permit violence, they can stimulate it as well. The finger pulls the trigger, but the trigger may also be pulling the finger."

Huh? :headscratch

Just read that garbage written by their hero above, and you know right away that they're french fry short of happy meal.

They are the types that end up passing out when car backfires on the street...
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Re: Interesting Psychology: Open Carry & The Weapons Effect

#18

Post by Abraham » Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:12 pm

Just another article written by a stealth-anti, albeit with what might sound scholarly to the unlettered peasant masses who prefer to fend for themselves rather than depend on the kindness of strangers i.e., law enforcement...

Where OC is legal and practiced scares the day lights out of some who dream up bogus anti-gun arguments to assuage their fear and bias while trying to inject some justification that the mere sight of a gun will cause blood to run in the streets...

On occasion I OC as in yesterdays errand running.

I was getting a 20lb propane bottled re-filled ($12.00 in my neck of the woods) and just couldn't be bothered to conceal. It's hot out there... I've been getting my propane at the same location for years (and propane products as Hank Hill would know about..) and have always concealed. I am unfailing friendly and polite as they are too. The guy filling my tank (the same guy I've had do it for years) and the woman taking my money (the same woman too) in the office didn't bat an eye at my Glock 19 on my right hip and my extra magazine on my left.

I love living in Texas.

Frankly, I think if a gun is OC'd and for some unexpected reason an argument breaks out, it'll be a polite disagreement, not the other way around. That is of course based on all parties being of sound mind...if on the rare occasion the unsound find argumentation exacerbated by the sight of a gun, well it's not going to help them to get huffy...

Someone (Mark Twain maybe...?) once said: An armed society is a polite society.

Yep!


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Re: Interesting Psychology: Open Carry & The Weapons Effect

#19

Post by treadlightly » Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:21 pm

TexasTornado wrote:
treadlightly wrote:Ok, here's the proof of bad science. Note this:
In one field experiment,[2] a confederate driving a pickup truck purposely remained stalled at a traffic light for 12 seconds to see whether the motorists trapped behind him would honk their horns (the measure of aggression). The truck contained either a .303-calibre military rifle in a gun rack mounted to the rear window, or no rifle.
The writer is an idiot. The confederacy didn't have any rifles chambered in .303 British, which is what I assume he's talking about.

An accurately portrayed confederate would likely have an Enfield pattern rifle. I think those were the most common.

In any case, by dragging the Confederacy (kindly doff your hats) into this I proclaim my trigger has been pulled. I need my safe space now. :eek6

A confederate in an experiment is someone, disguised as a participant or non involved party, who is working for/with the experimenter. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the Confederacy or the Bloody Red Coats.
Yeah, yeah, I know. I need to stand in the corner, 'cause I knew the difference between a confederate, particularly with a little 'c', and Johnny Reb. But I still suspect the .303 he was talking about was a .303 British. He even referred to the "calibre."

On a serious note, everything we do affects the situations in which we act. I understand that, but it should be easier to normalize the presence of guns in peaceful settings than to pacify those who wish us harm, and that also saves us the burden of bending to the effective will of hooligans, to wit, to disarm because someone else might cause us harm.

I also fully understand we probably agree on most topics pertinent to this forum. No disrespect to you was intended.

Thanks for posting a link to the article.


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Re: Interesting Psychology: Open Carry & The Weapons Effect

#20

Post by pushpullpete » Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:24 pm

Texas Tornado, me thinks you MAY have touched a raw nerve for some.
Police uniforms, along with military uniforms, give most citizens the illusion that a strong & calming
force is now present and will solve all issues to everyones satisfaction. Not always true. They are
human just like the rest of us and 'sometimes' have more training. Street clothes & armed does
NOT project the same image for most sheeple. Newer, updated studies should be done if you really
want a realistic truth. Keep in mind that those 'studies' will always be skewed one way or another.
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Re: Interesting Psychology: Open Carry & The Weapons Effect

#21

Post by TexasTornado » Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:43 pm

Soccerdad1995 wrote:
TexasTornado wrote:Please note, this effect is ONLY documented when subjects are already in a state of agitation. It has not been found to apply when just having normal conversations or when not already otherwise in an agitated/angered state.

Personally the reporter's opinions and interjections are completely irrelevant to me, it was just the first article I found on the topics presented in class. The relevant information in my opinion is the findings of the studies themselves and the idea that violence, once initiated, may escalate more quickly with a pistol visible.
One problem with this type of study is that it can lead to very dangerous conclusions. If the presence of guns causes a bad situation to get worse, then maybe we should stop sending police out to domestic violence calls? Or we could just require all police officers to conceal carry. Don't get me started about gun shops / gun ranges. Just yesterday I got a work e-mail that made me extremely angry right before I went to the range. I was definitely agitated, but by some miracle, I managed to not go on a shooting rampage despite the sight of a wall full of firearms. I then discovered that my brand new Walther PPQ has an issue (failure to lock back on an empty magazine). That irritated me even more. And yet, the walk out of there was somehow uneventful, despite once again seeing a large number of weapons on clear display.

By the way, Walther was very quick to send me a pre-paid shipping label. Hopefully, they will get the issue addressed quickly.
You make a very good point that is often lost when reviewing studies of these outside of a classroom setting where you are reminded every 5 minutes: correlation does not equal causation. The presence of a gun may not be the cause of the increased violence, perhaps it's the experimenters glances at said weapon that cause the escalation towards aggression, or any number of other factors for that matter. All we know from these experiments is that they are correlated on some level.
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Re: Interesting Psychology: Open Carry & The Weapons Effect

#22

Post by TexasTornado » Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:45 pm

pushpullpete wrote:Texas Tornado, me thinks you MAY have touched a raw nerve for some.
Police uniforms, along with military uniforms, give most citizens the illusion that a strong & calming
force is now present and will solve all issues to everyones satisfaction. Not always true. They are
human just like the rest of us and 'sometimes' have more training. Street clothes & armed does
NOT project the same image for most sheeple. Newer, updated studies should be done if you really
want a realistic truth. Keep in mind that those 'studies' will always be skewed one way or another.
:txflag: :patriot:

I'd be happy to do a modern experiment! Let's find some grant money and make it happen!
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Re: Interesting Psychology: Open Carry & The Weapons Effect

#23

Post by Mysguidednlv » Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:21 pm

Jusme wrote:Like any "study" where the conclusion ids already cemented, testing can be skewed to be sure that the desired result is met. It could be "proven" with the right parameters, and testing procedures, that pigs are aerodynamic, and should be the best choice to ride for aerial tours. :mrgreen:
:iagree: Definitely this.

"I have an opinion that I want to pass off as a fact, so let's perform a subjective test, pass it off as objective, then title the article with something that sheeple can put on a t-shirt."

I would be interested to see how individuals who are responsible, educated gun owners and/or are licensed to carry respond versus those that do/are not.

My opinion is that the former would be less likely to respond confrontationally... One would believe there is a better understanding of the importance avoidance and de-escalation of confrontation plays in the responsible firearm ownership community, whereas those having a history of illegally carrying/owning may be often gravitating towards confrontation, while those who are not educated on gun ownership and proper handling (I'd imagine) have been programmed to have a negative knee-jerk reaction to visible firearms.

Instead of focusing on the introduction of visible firearms, the research needs to be on how differing levels of firearm education and experience play a role in how people respond to potentially confrontational situations. That, of course, wouldn't fit the narrative that the anti-gun community has been spewing, now would it ... :banghead:
Last edited by Mysguidednlv on Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:22 pm, edited 7 times in total.

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Re: Interesting Psychology: Open Carry & The Weapons Effect

#24

Post by bblhd672 » Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:41 pm

TexasTornado wrote: What are your thoughts based on this research?
Bull excrement. And I didn't even have to waste any brain cells reading yet another publication that espouses reasons for gun control agenda.
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Re: Interesting Psychology: Open Carry & The Weapons Effect

#25

Post by The Annoyed Man » Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:02 pm

parabelum wrote:What a academic rubbish.

"Guns not only permit violence, they can stimulate it as well. The finger pulls the trigger, but the trigger may also be pulling the finger."

Huh? :headscratch

Just read that garbage written by their hero above, and you know right away that they're french fry short of happy meal.

They are the types that end up passing out when car backfires on the street...
Even my 3 year old granddaughter knows that bad things happen when she pulls poppa's finger.
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Re: Interesting Psychology: Open Carry & The Weapons Effect

#26

Post by VoodooSan » Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:27 pm

I believe our society is overly sensitive today. It is a no win situation because no matter what someone gets offended. You can pay a stranger a sincere compliment on the street and they will go off on you. Then you have people with several mental issues compounding the issues. But to stay on topic I think the majority of people who have issues with seeing someone open carry is ignorance. A lot of us that are in CHL and shooting community do not have this hang up because we have (hopefully) received training and understand the proper philosophy of carrying firearms legally and safely.

Let me give an example. When I met my wife she was very anti-gun. Not against the 2nd Amendment mind you she just didnt like guns. She didnt understand why someone should feel the need to carry a gun who wasnt LEO. Her family was mostly anti-gun as well. You know how it goes "Guns kill! If there were no more guns there would be no more killing" type of mind set Being a former LEO and firearms instructor I calmly and rationally explained why I chose to carry and why I support other law abiding citizens who legally carry.

Now when I leave the house she will ask "Hey you are carrying right?" She feels safer and sleeps better knowing we are armed.

I think it comes down to continuing to educate the anti-gun crowd. There are some people who are not willing to be open minded enough to listen or are too set in their ways. If someone is open carrying dressed as a commando sure I can see why it would upset people. It would bother me and I carry.

Simple fact is our society has gotten more violent and more dangerous. We deserve to be able to protect ourselves. Every time a violent crime is committed with a gun and makes news we here from the anti-gun crowd how if there were no guns we wouldnt have this issue. Of course that is wrong. I also think OC being relatively new in Texas is part of the issue because most here arent used to seeing people being able to openly carry. I think it will take time.

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Re: Interesting Psychology: Open Carry & The Weapons Effect

#27

Post by VoodooSan » Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:28 pm

The Annoyed Man wrote:
parabelum wrote:What a academic rubbish.

"Guns not only permit violence, they can stimulate it as well. The finger pulls the trigger, but the trigger may also be pulling the finger."

Huh? :headscratch

Just read that garbage written by their hero above, and you know right away that they're french fry short of happy meal.

They are the types that end up passing out when car backfires on the street...
Even my 3 year old granddaughter knows that bad things happen when she pulls poppa's finger.
LOL!

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Re: Interesting Psychology: Open Carry & The Weapons Effect

#28

Post by The Annoyed Man » Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:13 am

VoodooSan wrote:Now when I leave the house she will ask "Hey you are carrying right?" She feels safer and sleeps better knowing we are armed.
And that is great, so I'm not knocking it. But is she yet to the point where she's considering carrying one herself? My wife was sort of like yours.....not anti-2nd Amendment, but just not understanding why anyone not LEO would want to carry one. Then I gave her her first ever firearm - a S&W snubbie - for Valentine's Day in 2008. Then she got it. She not only wanted me to carry, but she began to see that she could too.

Now I know that, heaven forbid something should happen to me, she can still protect herself. She carries every single day now.
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Re: Interesting Psychology: Open Carry & The Weapons Effect

#29

Post by TexasTornado » Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:04 am

The Annoyed Man wrote:
VoodooSan wrote:Now when I leave the house she will ask "Hey you are carrying right?" She feels safer and sleeps better knowing we are armed.
And that is great, so I'm not knocking it. But is she yet to the point where she's considering carrying one herself? My wife was sort of like yours.....not anti-2nd Amendment, but just not understanding why anyone not LEO would want to carry one. Then I gave her her first ever firearm - a S&W snubbie - for Valentine's Day in 2008. Then she got it. She not only wanted me to carry, but she began to see that she could too.

Now I know that, heaven forbid something should happen to me, she can still protect herself. She carries every single day now.
This reminds me of my household. My mom is just starting to carry regularly after we got her a purple p238 for Valentine's Day 2017. As for me, I'd say I carry about 95% of the time I am able (laws permitting). The other 5% I ask my dad if he's carrying and let him handle it. As daddy's little girl, I can say with all confidence, if you can trust anyone in this world to have your back, it's your daddy.
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Re: Interesting Psychology: Open Carry & The Weapons Effect

#30

Post by earlwb » Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:38 am

Some of these studies do seem to show an increase in aggressiveness with a firearm present. The recent TV series "Through the WormHole" with Morgan Freeman had a episode discussing some of this. The Episode 4 series 8 "Is gun crime a virus"? I think that it seems to affect those people with a liberal mindset much more than those with a conservative mindset. It is almost like a trigger got pulled with aggressiveness if a liberal sees a gun. I would like to see studies done with liberals separate from conservatives and maybe even in more detail, such as with race and different religious affiliations based on liberal versus conservative too. I think that would be most enlightening. Unfortunately I think that most of these studies are funded by the anti-2a billionaires looking to increase their power over people. We don't know if any studies were suppressed because the ones with the money didn't like the results.

One thought on open carry is that the firearm, being present, can easily result in it being considered "aggravated assault", depending on the circumstances. If two people get into a argument and one has a gun shown, it could quickly wind up being an aggravated assault even if the owner never touches the gun. Or the person touches the gun in a menacing manner.

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