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One hunting trip, I took my new 1911 .45 and did a mag dump with no 'ears' in the middle of a field.
My ears rang for hours. Hated that.

But also on that trip, I was in a phone-booth sized ground stand, and fired my 7mm Mag rifle at a buck.
I *never* heard the shot, or for that matter, felt it.

Adrenaline will shut down that hearing. Not saying you can't do damage; I am saying that you probably won't notice.

Therefore, I would NOT train without the 'ears'.

Liberty wrote:We never used hearing protection as yutes or with the Army. Shot a mini 14 while in my car once. Was painful. I have also a few folks how to shoot. My observations and understanding is. Shooting 1 round of modest ammo like a 380 or 9mm can cause permanent hearing loss, this hearing loss gets worse as we get older. Shooting without protection won't make you shoot better. Shooting a loud gun without hearing protection can make you flinch.

It has been reported that in stressful adrenalin pumping shootouts the sound of gunfire was not uncomfortable or an issue at the time. Even though hearing loss had happened.

That's right. It's called auditory exclusion and it is a reaction to stress. Damage definitely occurs.

Years of exposure to gun fire, sirens, air horns has damaged my hearing, I have been tested and found to be deaf to certain frequencies of sound, weird to be talking to a cashier or other person and I can see their mouth move but not understand everything they say, for those in the younger crowd PROTECT YOUR HEARING!

crazy2medic wrote:Years of exposure to gun fire, sirens, air horns has damaged my hearing, I have been tested and found to be deaf to certain frequencies of sound, weird to be talking to a cashier or other person and I can see their mouth move but not understand everything they say, for those in the younger crowd PROTECT YOUR HEARING!

My dad is the same way. He served in the air-force in his 20s and was a career full-time firefighter and is now retired and definitely has suffered permanent hearing loss.

A couple months ago he was visiting from Kansas and I took him shooting. I gave him a pair of ear plugs and he was wearing them through our first firing session. After the range went cold he took the plugs out and let me know that he doesn't like ear plugs because he can never get them to seal in his canal. I said, "Well I wish that you would have said so, because I have ear muffs in my range bag." He said, "It's probably too late now because my ears are already ringing" but he did end up using the ear muffs and saying that it was much better that way. I know that my dad was willing to "tough it out" while further damaging his hearing. I am not willing to do that, which is why I always take my muffs with me in my range bag just in case.

I don't need the ear muffs when I am shooting pistols because I get a good seal with ear plugs, however often there is someone nearby shooting 5.56 or 7.62 rounds and I may choose to wear double hearing protection (muffs over plugs).

Also, some people like my dad (and my wife) can't get plugs to seal. At work they brought in a company that does custom molded ear plugs, and everyone at work loved them, they even had an opening so that you can attach your radio in to it and always be able to hear the radio chatter. I got mine and I could get them to fit into one of my ears, but the other one I couldn't never get them to fit right, even after I had them do a second set and adjust the fit... so I just wear the regular soft ear plugs.

You can't train your hearing.

Wear protection in training.

I have moved my earmuff protector to behind my ear so I could hear during a cease-fire, and then forgot to move it forward again before cranking off the first round of my AK. Did not like it. Especially since everyone around me kept shooting. I'm with Beiruty and some of the others, in an actual event I don't think I will be paying attention to the loud noise.

The sound difference between 5.56 and 5.56 blanks is interesting. Blanks are so quiet you don't even need ear pro. I thought this principle held true for every caliber of blanks. It does not.

Once, when I was training with my M2 .50 cal, they gave us blanks for some reason, and this big, weird BFA (blank firing adapter) to go on the barrel. I assumed the sound difference for the blanks would be similar to the sound difference exhibited by the 5.56, so I didn't bother putting in ear pro. We were "ambushed" and I let loose with a burst, after which I hastily found my ear pro. I heard ringing the rest of the day.

I also forgot to put my ear pro back in after a break in fire on a 9mm range. I realized after my first shot that this was a mistake.

I have never intentionally shot without ear pro for training purposes, but I'm fairly well acquainted with the sound.

The brain is wired for auditory exclusion - hence the reason verbal commands are shouted.

Also wired for tunnel vision, time dilation, and digestive system shut down when under enough stress to cause adrenaline dump.

And the stress level to invoke auditory exclusion won't likely be there when training, so shooting without ear protection to simulate what you'd experience is kinda moot point anyway. Other than the ringing in the ears after the fact...

Have a VBIED go off or a rocket land near you. That will show you instantly that loud noises do nothing to help your reactions, and no amount of training helps that out. Same with machine gun fire right across the brick wall from you, or grenades.

OR - have an office within a hundred or so yards from the flight line at Bagram AFB, with tandem F15s taking off every 60 minutes. That will shake your soul, let alone crater your hearing.



I almost always shoot my centerfire rifles suppressed, with ear pro. Just because it may be "hearing safe" does not make it fun. Pistols are not always suppressed, but always have ear pro. Use ear pro for my 22LR platforms as well.

You are exposed to enough loud noises on a daily basis to cause cumulative hearing loss over decades to not risk sudden hearing loss.

thatguyoverthere wrote:I'm sure most of us routinely use ear protection when we are shooting for practice or training or whatever similar activity.

However, if we ever have to fire our weapon in a real-life defense situation, we are almost certainly NOT going to have ear protection on. If you haven't noticed, gunfire is pretty loud, especially indoors.

Have you ever considered that if you do have to fire your gun in a defensive situation (without ear protection) there will be an extremely loud, extremely violent explosion occur just about two feet from your face? You might be startled enough by that sudden, loud explosion that you may be momentarily disoriented because this in not what you are accustomed to in all your practice shooting. That (possibly very brief) disorientation might be a real problem if you need to fire follow-up shot(s), especially considering someone might be shooting back at you.

That brings up the question: do you ever practice/train - even for just one or two shots - with NO ear protection, just so it might help you be more familiar with the sound of full volume gunshots, in order to possibly be better prepared for a real-life defensive shooting event?

There is something you are not factoring in, and cannot train for. Namely, adrenaline. Don't sacrifice you hearing unnecessarily. Adrenaline will keep you from even noticing the sound.

allisji wrote:

crazy2medic wrote:Years of exposure to gun fire, sirens, air horns has damaged my hearing, I have been tested and found to be deaf to certain frequencies of sound, weird to be talking to a cashier or other person and I can see their mouth move but not understand everything they say, for those in the younger crowd PROTECT YOUR HEARING!

My dad is the same way. He served in the air-force in his 20s and was a career full-time firefighter and is now retired and definitely has suffered permanent hearing loss.

A couple months ago he was visiting from Kansas and I took him shooting. I gave him a pair of ear plugs and he was wearing them through our first firing session. After the range went cold he took the plugs out and let me know that he doesn't like ear plugs because he can never get them to seal in his canal. I said, "Well I wish that you would have said so, because I have ear muffs in my range bag." He said, "It's probably too late now because my ears are already ringing" but he did end up using the ear muffs and saying that it was much better that way. I know that my dad was willing to "tough it out" while further damaging his hearing. I am not willing to do that, which is why I always take my muffs with me in my range bag just in case.

I don't need the ear muffs when I am shooting pistols because I get a good seal with ear plugs, however often there is someone nearby shooting 5.56 or 7.62 rounds and I may choose to wear double hearing protection (muffs over plugs).

Also, some people like my dad (and my wife) can't get plugs to seal. At work they brought in a company that does custom molded ear plugs, and everyone at work loved them, they even had an opening so that you can attach your radio in to it and always be able to hear the radio chatter. I got mine and I could get them to fit into one of my ears, but the other one I couldn't never get them to fit right, even after I had them do a second set and adjust the fit... so I just wear the regular soft ear plugs.

This is why I have taken to using the electronic ear muffs, they improve your hearing on the range or while shooting with others but any sound over 86 decibels will cause them to momentarily shut off, I use them anytime I'm shooting and carry two pair in my range bag, I give them to friends and family for birthday and Christmas gifts (HINT)

Lynyrd wrote: There is something you are not factoring in, and cannot train for. Namely, adrenaline. Don't sacrifice you hearing unnecessarily. Adrenaline will keep you from even noticing the sound.

I am going to disagree to an extent about adrenaline. Enter a two-way kill house using simunitions. You'll get close - it is a legit two-way non-lethal shooting range. It also hurts like hell.

You can also combine high intensity physical exercise on an action range to simulate physical exertion and the adrenaline that accompanies it.

The degree of fight or flight is tough to replicate but the kill house gets awfully close.

cyphur wrote:

Lynyrd wrote: There is something you are not factoring in, and cannot train for. Namely, adrenaline. Don't sacrifice you hearing unnecessarily. Adrenaline will keep you from even noticing the sound.

I am going to disagree to an extent about adrenaline. Enter a two-way kill house using simunitions. You'll get close - it is a legit two-way non-lethal shooting range. It also hurts like heck.

You can also combine high intensity physical exercise on an action range to simulate physical exertion and the adrenaline that accompanies it.

The degree of fight or flight is tough to replicate but the kill house gets awfully close.

Okay, I'll concede that you can somewhat train for it. But do you agree that adrenaline, and maybe fear, more or less make you ignore the sounds?

Lynyrd wrote:

cyphur wrote:

Lynyrd wrote: There is something you are not factoring in, and cannot train for. Namely, adrenaline. Don't sacrifice you hearing unnecessarily. Adrenaline will keep you from even noticing the sound.

I am going to disagree to an extent about adrenaline. Enter a two-way kill house using simunitions. You'll get close - it is a legit two-way non-lethal shooting range. It also hurts like heck.

You can also combine high intensity physical exercise on an action range to simulate physical exertion and the adrenaline that accompanies it.

The degree of fight or flight is tough to replicate but the kill house gets awfully close.

Okay, I'll concede that you can somewhat train for it. But do you agree that adrenaline, and maybe fear, more or less make you ignore the sounds?

Yes, adrenaline will drown out the sound. If anything that makes it more dangerous.

My point for training for adrenaline is more along the lines of smoothing out motions, avoiding jerks, handling a weapon under stress, etc.