Dillon Blue Press: Interesting Article

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Charles L. Cotton
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Dillon Blue Press: Interesting Article

#1

Post by Charles L. Cotton » Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:39 pm

The Blue Press came today and it has an interesting rebuttal article on Page 32. Actually, there are several rebuttals, but the one that interests me is the one by Dr. England. I didn't read the article in the last issue that is the subject of rebuttals, but apparently was horrible. I'll see if I still have that issue. I find Dr. England's statement regarding the rate at which a person "bleeds" when shot with a 9mm compared with a 45ACP quite interesting.

I wish I could copy it here, but I don't have the time or the desire to get written approval to publish the article. If you are interested, Dr. England's rebuttal deals with the bogus claim that "9mm is just as good as 45ACP for self-defense." Yep, here we go again!!

Chas.


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Re: Dillon Blue Press: Interesting Article

#2

Post by flechero » Tue Oct 01, 2019 5:56 pm

Charles L. Cotton wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:39 pm
The Blue Press came today and it has an interesting rebuttal article on Page 32. Actually, there are several rebuttals, but the one that interests me is the one by Dr. England. I didn't read the article in the last issue that is the subject of rebuttals, but apparently was horrible. I'll see if I still have that issue. I find Dr. England's statement regarding the rate at which a person "bleeds" when shot with a 9mm compared with a 45ACP quite interesting.

I wish I could copy it here, but I don't have the time or the desire to get written approval to publish the article. If you are interested, Dr. England's rebuttal deals with the bogus claim that "9mm is just as good as 45ACP for self-defense." Yep, here we go again!!

Chas.
Your postman must be better than mine! :lol: Just kidding, I like my postman, but no BluePress today.


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Re: Dillon Blue Press: Interesting Article

#3

Post by abom2 » Tue Oct 01, 2019 6:35 pm

I will stick with what I know works for me. Of course I am pigheaded. :biggrinjester: I joined the Marines when it was not cool, only stupid people who could not hold a Real Job in the World joined. :smash:

Carried the 1911 for more than a decade before the transition to the Beretta. :mad5 Unit I was in kept all of the Beretta's in the armory after six months of fooling with them. Used our Unit's Special Training Funds to acquire a "Modern pistol" chambered in .45 ACP for each line person in the unit. Carried those in DS and again in 2004 in Al Anbar province.

School of Hard Knocks degree is what I follow. It works for me, others can do what works for them. After all that is why we can choose between mustard or ketchup, or both. :hurry:


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Re: Dillon Blue Press: Interesting Article

#4

Post by K-Texas » Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:10 pm

There are just too many variables to claim that 9 = 45 or vice versa. For several years now it has been my pleasure in getting acquainted with Charles Schwartz who authored, Quantitative Ammunition Selection. With an accuracy rate of better then 95% and nearly 900 direct comparisons, the lay-ballistician can predict penetration in calibrated ordnance gel, and exactly what the FBI uses, not substitutes, by chronographing their bullet as it enters water filled baggies, weighing the recovered bullet and finding the average for expansion.

It may just be my opinion, but total reliance on the permanent stretch cavity at nearly the expanded diameter of the bullet was doomed from the beginning, which was the "Miami Shootout of 1986." After Mr. Maddox took a 9mm 115 gr. Silvertip through the upper arm, the bullet penetrated on to just millimeters from entering his heart. Post mortem, that wound was deemed unsurvivable, yet Maddox continued the fight after receiving that wound, killing and wounding more agents afterward.

Several different entities have positive opinions. None of them, however, have cornered the market. I've have tried to be as unbiased as I can while listening to the opinions of the IWBA, Marshall & Sanow, as well as the Dr.s Courtney and the BPW and too many others to list here.

Along with Charles Schwartz's excellent book on the subject, he designed a spreadsheet program whereby adding the necessary data, a number of things are revealed as well as the "stop prediction" that's not as easy as it sounds. The percentage increases as it should with each successive round on target.

Energy is far more relevant than some believe, but what I've put the most stock into is momentum. I covered this in my most recent article for the Western Powder's blog: https://blog.westernpowders.com/2019/09 ... allistics/

Typically, heavier bullets in 45 provide greater momentum, but often are lacking in energy. 9mm is nearly the reverse. Momentum and energy can both be manipulated by mass and velocity. For my loads, I choose to use a minimum of .6500 Lb-seconds of Momentum while I'm also interested in the amount of energy they provide. When calculating momentum mathematically, and not just by power factor, energy can be derived from the Momentum calculation. I gave that in the article, but here it is, skipping the first step which is the mass conversion. Bullet Weight / 225218 x V = Momentum. Energy = Momentum x (V/2)

From the spreadsheet program I mentioned, you can find the value for the energy departed in the 1st to 15th centimeter of the wound. Sometimes it's about how rapidly a JHP expands while penetrating deeply enough. For me, that's 12" in bare gelatin which will only be deeper after 4 layers of denim. There's something else I've just began focusing on. The program gives a power value in kW, yep, kiloWatts, What I'm finding is that the faster the bullet reaches full expansion, the higher the power value will be. But you must also consider depth of penetration.

The good news is that Mr. Schwartz may make his program available commercially. And I should admit that I cheat! The apparatus he uses is explained in his book, while I continue to use 1 - Gallon water filled jugs. I set the 1st jug at the same distance the bullet is chronograhed between the skyscreens, or say 12'.

Lastly, I should point out that some of the major players in the ammo biz are once again emphasizing energy. While your at the Western blog, Charles has a recent article as well that points out the flaws in selecting loads by energy alone with light/fast loads in 9mm. whether it's 9mm or .45 ACP, there's far more to it than just velocity or mass alone. I will say that the guys who mostly preach the Permanent Stretch Cavity and ignore the temporary stretch cavity, get a little perturbed by the mention of 125 gr. JHPs in .357 Magnum. Unlike the FBI, the DPS was testing after barriers a good while before the FBI, they never had a doubt about their chosen tools. It was ammo portability that moved them to the .357 SIG while it was the load that came closest to replicating the magnum revolver round. ;-)
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Re: Dillon Blue Press: Interesting Article

#5

Post by eyedoc » Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:08 pm

abom2 wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 6:35 pm
I will stick with what I know works for me. Of course I am pigheaded. :biggrinjester: I joined the Marines when it was not cool, only stupid people who could not hold a Real Job in the World joined. :smash:

Carried the 1911 for more than a decade before the transition to the Beretta. :mad5 Unit I was in kept all of the Beretta's in the armory after six months of fooling with them. Used our Unit's Special Training Funds to acquire a "Modern pistol" chambered in .45 ACP for each line person in the unit. Carried those in DS and again in 2004 in Al Anbar province.

School of Hard Knocks degree is what I follow. It works for me, others can do what works for them. After all that is why we can choose between mustard or ketchup, or both. :hurry:
I don't care for mustard or ketchup. :shock: I carry a double stake 1911 in 10 mm. 16 rounds of full power 10 mm loads.


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Re: Dillon Blue Press: Interesting Article

#6

Post by Chemist45 » Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:21 pm

Eyedoc, what do you consider full power 10mm rounds?
And where do you get them from?


eyedoc
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Re: Dillon Blue Press: Interesting Article

#7

Post by eyedoc » Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:40 pm

Chemist45 wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:21 pm
Eyedoc, what do you consider full power 10mm rounds?
And where do you get them from?
Underwood Ammo

2 rounds 135 Grains Nosler Jacketed Hollow Point at 1600 FPS then 1 round 140 Grains Lehigh Defense Xtreme Penetrator at 1500 fps repeat until full.


abom2
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Re: Dillon Blue Press: Interesting Article

#8

Post by abom2 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:37 am

eyedoc wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:08 pm
abom2 wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 6:35 pm
I will stick with what I know works for me. Of course I am pigheaded. :biggrinjester: I joined the Marines when it was not cool, only stupid people who could not hold a Real Job in the World joined. :smash:

Carried the 1911 for more than a decade before the transition to the Beretta. :mad5 Unit I was in kept all of the Beretta's in the armory after six months of fooling with them. Used our Unit's Special Training Funds to acquire a "Modern pistol" chambered in .45 ACP for each line person in the unit. Carried those in DS and again in 2004 in Al Anbar province.

School of Hard Knocks degree is what I follow. It works for me, others can do what works for them. After all that is why we can choose between mustard or ketchup, or both. :hurry:
I don't care for mustard or ketchup. :shock: I carry a double stake 1911 in 10 mm. 16 rounds of full power 10 mm loads.
It is nice that we have the freedom to consider and select what works best for our individual selves.


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Re: Dillon Blue Press: Interesting Article

#9

Post by easy10 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:51 am

One study highlighted the importance of capacity since 70 to 80% of the shots miss. Pack more 9MM in a double stack.

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Re: Dillon Blue Press: Interesting Article

#10

Post by Paladin » Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:32 am

Thanks for the tip Chas! I'll look for the article. Hopefully my wife didn't throw it out :lol:
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Re: Dillon Blue Press: Interesting Article

#11

Post by chamberc » Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:36 am

Charles L. Cotton wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:39 pm
The Blue Press came today and it has an interesting rebuttal article on Page 32. Actually, there are several rebuttals, but the one that interests me is the one by Dr. England. I didn't read the article in the last issue that is the subject of rebuttals, but apparently was horrible. I'll see if I still have that issue. I find Dr. England's statement regarding the rate at which a person "bleeds" when shot with a 9mm compared with a 45ACP quite interesting.

I wish I could copy it here, but I don't have the time or the desire to get written approval to publish the article. If you are interested, Dr. England's rebuttal deals with the bogus claim that "9mm is just as good as 45ACP for self-defense." Yep, here we go again!!

Chas.
I desire to never experience being shot by either. I understand the physics, but carry 9mm & 40 S&W and am comfortable with them.
Last edited by chamberc on Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dillon Blue Press: Interesting Article

#12

Post by LTUME1978 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:36 am

Charles,

I have the article from last month if you would like to see it and can't find your copy. The title is "Why the 45 ACP FAILED" (or some words similar but I remember the word "failed" being in all caps). I was tempted to write to the author and ask him to send me his 45 ACP pistols and ammo/reloading gear as he considers them such a terrible thing but I decided to let that on go as I knew he would get bombarded with rebuttals.

I was never in the military or law enforcement so I take training classes and talk to those that are/were and ask questions. I have talked to several Houston PD SWAT team members that all carried a 45 ACP (two in 1911 and one in a Glock). I asked why and the answer I got was that the people that they shoot just seem to go down faster when hit with a 45 ACP. One of these guys had a 1911 10mm build by a local pistol smith. I asked why and he said he wanted to be able to reach out and touch bad guys at a long range with his pistol (and he can do that, he is a very good shot). Several of the training classes I have attended were made up of mostly law enforcement with some being big city SWAT. I saw a number of those SWAT guys carrying a 1911 in 45 ACP. I asked why and got the same answer as what I got from the HPD SWAT guys. The instructor of those classes is a former Delta Team Lead. He tells us to carry the biggest thing that you can shoot well. His definition of "shoot well" is probably a much higher level of performance than most. He carries a 357 sig Glock sub compact and can really shoot that thing.

Paul Harrel just put out a video comparing the new military Sig 9mm with the Berreta and a military grade 1911. He was able to shoot the 1911 more accurately and demonstrated that (when using ball ammo) the 45 ACP did a good bit more damage than the 9 mm. The only negative he had on the 1911 in 45 ACP was the capacity of that pistol vs the capacity of the 9mm.

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Re: Dillon Blue Press: Interesting Article

#13

Post by Jago668 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:52 am

I made the switch to 9mm primarily based on logistics. My wife can't really handle a double stack .45, which is what I used to carry G30sf, and G21. So between wanting her to be able to use my pistol, and only having to buy and store one type of pistol ammo. Just made my life easier. I am not more accurate or precise with a 9mm over a .45acp. However I can get those rounds on target faster, and do get more ammo. I've shot 357 sig, 10mm, and 40 s&w as well and don't really like the recoil on them. But yeah, left 100% up to just me I'd take .45acp every day.
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Re: Dillon Blue Press: Interesting Article

#14

Post by 03Lightningrocks » Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:16 am

Jago668 wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:52 am
I made the switch to 9mm primarily based on logistics. My wife can't really handle a double stack .45, which is what I used to carry G30sf, and G21. So between wanting her to be able to use my pistol, and only having to buy and store one type of pistol ammo. Just made my life easier. I am not more accurate or precise with a 9mm over a .45acp. However I can get those rounds on target faster, and do get more ammo. I've shot 357 sig, 10mm, and 40 s&w as well and don't really like the recoil on them. But yeah, left 100% up to just me I'd take .45acp every day.
I have not shot a 357 sig or 10mm but my 40 is really sharp with recoil. I suppose it is due to the high pressure of the round.


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Re: Dillon Blue Press: Interesting Article

#15

Post by SamBodie » Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:33 am

All I have to say is it's difficult to get better advise that what Brother Elmer M. Keith put out in his several books and hundreds of articles. If you do not know about him it would make a good research project.

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