Would you shoot?

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Grumpy1993
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Would you shoot?

#1

Post by Grumpy1993 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:53 pm

https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/local ... ef1fa6d66f
Apparent cell phone video footage of the gruesome assault was posted to Facebook late Friday night. In the video, a mob of people surrounds the woman and a man in a white T-shirt, who punches her repeatedly and then kicks her while she is on the ground. Eventually, others join in the assault as well. After the woman has been kicked, punched and pulled across the apartment complex parking lot, the video ends with three other women helping the woman up.

Dallas Police are investigating the incident and said they are "reviewing all available evidence to determine if it will be classified as a hate crime."
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Re: Would you shoot?

#2

Post by WTR » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:10 pm

I would have stopped the beating.


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Re: Would you shoot?

#3

Post by Soccerdad1995 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:27 pm

This is the definition of a challenging use of force decision for me, personally. And it has precisely zero to do with anyone's race, sexual orientation, or gender identity.

One big problem here is that we are coming upon a situation after it has started. We don't know who the initial aggressor was, or what happened before the point that the video started. In the hypothetical question for this thread, I will also assume that none of the folks here was actively threatening to harm me, or my family.

But if I happened upon a scene such as this one, where there was an obvious disparity of force, no visible weapons, and no idea whether this was mutual combat, an unprovoked attack, or the initial victim carrying things a bit too far? I would definitely be a good witness. I would try to get video evidence to help LEO's sort out the criminals and the victims. I would also try to stop the beating using my voice, and possibly also using force (pulling folks apart). I would not escalate to the use of deadly force unless the situation changed dramatically as a result of my initial efforts.

And my answer would change if I was there with my kids, especially if my wife was not there with me to help get them to safety. In that case, I might not escalate to the use of force as the safety of my children would trump the safety of an unknown person who might appear at first glance to be a victim.
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Re: Would you shoot?

#4

Post by Grumpy1993 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:38 pm

Soccerdad1995 wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:27 pm
One big problem here is that we are coming upon a situation after it has started. We don't know who the initial aggressor was, or what happened before the point that the video started. In the hypothetical question for this thread, I will also assume that none of the folks here was actively threatening to harm me, or my family.
Assume they're not actively threatening to harm you, or your family, before you insert yourself into the situation. However, one of the lessons here in my mind, is how eagerly a bunch of bystanders jumped on the dog pile. If you get involved, you need to have a plan if they dog pile you too.
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Re: Would you shoot?

#5

Post by Bitter Clinger » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:10 pm

Again, we never get the full story initially or a complete understanding of who / what started it. The media seems to conveniently forget those details.

Just like the Deep Ellum incident where we saw the woman being beaten, they neglect to tell us what preceded. In the Deep Ellum incident the woman was drunk, driving the wrong way down the street, blocked the car of someone who had been working long hours, and the woman was clearly belligerent and she struck the male first. Does that justify the beating?

Here the man / woman backed his / her vehicle into another person's car and then early on we saw footage of him / her prancing about and apparently acting the fool. Does that justify the beating?

How's that go? Don't write a check with your mouth...

Both of these incidents seem to have been compounded by the so-called victim. Its really not so simple.
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Re: Would you shoot?

#6

Post by Lena » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:12 pm

NOPE
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Re: Would you shoot?

#7

Post by Ruark » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:18 pm

It also brings up an interesting approach to defining "disparity of force." If a physical assault is one-on-one and neither party has a major physical advantage, there might not be a disparity. But what if there are 5 people beating on 1? Taken individually, they might not present a disparity, but they do when taken all together as a group. Since a disparity can justify using deadly force, would that be a defense against prosecution for shooting 1 of them (assuming the rest would flee)? Which one? Does it matter? This could be a tangled scenario to wrestle with in court.
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Re: Would you shoot?

#8

Post by AndyC » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:19 pm

Call the cops; I'd have no idea what was going on well-enough to shoot someone.
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Re: Would you shoot?

#9

Post by bblhd672 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:10 pm

Grumpy1993 wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:53 pm
https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/local ... ef1fa6d66f
Apparent cell phone video footage of the gruesome assault was posted to Facebook late Friday night. In the video, a mob of people surrounds the woman and a man in a white T-shirt, who punches her repeatedly and then kicks her while she is on the ground. Eventually, others join in the assault as well. After the woman has been kicked, punched and pulled across the apartment complex parking lot, the video ends with three other women helping the woman up.

Dallas Police are investigating the incident and said they are "reviewing all available evidence to determine if it will be classified as a hate crime."
First thing that has to be corrected..this was not a fight between a man and a woman, it was a fight between two men. Every use of the word "woman", "her" and "she" in the article is fake news. I refuse to bow to the false god of political correctness and normalize deviancy.

Otherwise, the best thing a normal person can do in a mob situation is put as much distance as possible between yourself and the mob.
The left lies about everything. Truth is a liberal value, and truth is a conservative value, but it has never been a left-wing value. People on the left say whatever advances their immediate agenda. Power is their moral lodestar; therefore, truth is always subservient to it. - Dennis Prager


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Re: Would you shoot?

#10

Post by proudpirate » Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:35 pm

The use of deadly force would not be warranted in this situation unless there was a firearm or knife or some other blunt instrument. Pepper spray would be the best use of necessary physical force to stop the assault.

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Re: Would you shoot?

#11

Post by Texas_Blaze » Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:51 pm

proudpirate wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:35 pm
The use of deadly force would not be warranted in this situation unless there was a firearm or knife or some other blunt instrument. Pepper spray would be the best use of necessary physical force to stop the assault.
Not to nit pick here but fists are blunt instruments in my opinion. At the risk of a slight divergence, I’ll dredge up Trayvon Martin as he was physically overpowering George Zimmerman. I wonder how this would turn out if this so-called woman had pulled a legal firearm while being pummeled. Nevertheless, I would only intervene with a firearm if I believed that there was danger to life. I used to think differently, and it has taken several years to reach this view. I don’t carry pepper spray. Maybe I should.


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Re: Would you shoot?

#12

Post by OneGun » Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:01 pm

WTR wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:10 pm
I would have stopped the beating.
The OP's question is would you shoot? If I shoot the unarmed man, I would have a lot of explaining to do to the police, the DA and a grand jury. The SJWs and PC critics would use the event as ammo in the gun control debate. More importantly, I would have to endure a lot of public criticism in the court of public opinion for shooting an unarmed black man. Would I want to put my family through all of that for a stranger when the man is beating her up, but not killing her? Protecting my family is easy, protecting a 3rd party is asking a lot more of anyone.

I might be a much better witness, record the confrontation, cooperate with the police as a witness, etc. But I don't think I would shoot. If the man was choking her, suffocating her, or doing something to actually kill her, that could change my response.
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Re: Would you shoot?

#13

Post by RoyGBiv » Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:28 pm

Bitter Clinger wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:10 pm
Again, we never get the full story initially or a complete understanding of who / what started it. The media seems to conveniently forget those details.

Just like the Deep Ellum incident where we saw the woman being beaten, they neglect to tell us what preceded. In the Deep Ellum incident the woman was drunk, driving the wrong way down the street, blocked the car of someone who had been working long hours, and the woman was clearly belligerent and she struck the male first. Does that justify the beating?

Here the man / woman backed his / her vehicle into another person's car and then early on we saw footage of him / her prancing about and apparently acting the fool. Does that justify the beating?

How's that go? Don't write a check with your mouth...

Both of these incidents seem to have been compounded by the so-called victim. Its really not so simple.
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Re: Would you shoot?

#14

Post by WTR » Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:05 am

RoyGBiv wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:28 pm
Bitter Clinger wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:10 pm
Again, we never get the full story initially or a complete understanding of who / what started it. The media seems to conveniently forget those details.

Just like the Deep Ellum incident where we saw the woman being beaten, they neglect to tell us what preceded. In the Deep Ellum incident the woman was drunk, driving the wrong way down the street, blocked the car of someone who had been working long hours, and the woman was clearly belligerent and she struck the male first. Does that justify the beating?

Here the man / woman backed his / her vehicle into another person's car and then early on we saw footage of him / her prancing about and apparently acting the fool. Does that justify the beating?

How's that go? Don't write a check with your mouth...

Both of these incidents seem to have been compounded by the so-called victim. Its really not so simple.
Wisdom.
I don’t care what the back story turns out to be. There is no excuse for a beating. I stopped s beat down about 40 years ago. The excuse given to me was that the victim is a “ dirty Jew”. I don’t care what color, religion, political affiliation , or sexual preference you are, you don’t deserve a beating.

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Re: Would you shoot?

#15

Post by Bitter Clinger » Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:38 am

WTR wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:05 am
RoyGBiv wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:28 pm
Bitter Clinger wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:10 pm
Again, we never get the full story initially or a complete understanding of who / what started it. The media seems to conveniently forget those details.

Just like the Deep Ellum incident where we saw the woman being beaten, they neglect to tell us what preceded. In the Deep Ellum incident the woman was drunk, driving the wrong way down the street, blocked the car of someone who had been working long hours, and the woman was clearly belligerent and she struck the male first. Does that justify the beating?

Here the man / woman backed his / her vehicle into another person's car and then early on we saw footage of him / her prancing about and apparently acting the fool. Does that justify the beating?

How's that go? Don't write a check with your mouth...

Both of these incidents seem to have been compounded by the so-called victim. Its really not so simple.
Wisdom.
I don’t care what the back story turns out to be. There is no excuse for a beating. I stopped s beat down about 40 years ago. The excuse given to me was that the victim is a “ dirty Jew”. I don’t care what color, religion, political affiliation , or sexual preference you are, you don’t deserve a beating.
Then don't start something you can't finish. How many times on this Board have we written about the merits of de-escalation. In both cases it is likely that the alledged victim could have handled the situation in a manner that would not have provoked a violent response. The example you provided does not appear to fit these recent Dallas cases.
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