Would you shoot?

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joe817
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Re: Would you shoot?

#16

Post by joe817 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:42 am

I saw a news article on Fox4 this morning(local Fox affiliate) that the suspect was given $250.00 to beat up this person.
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Bitter Clinger
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Re: Would you shoot?

#17

Post by Bitter Clinger » Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:04 am

joe817 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:42 am
I saw a news article on Fox4 this morning(local Fox affiliate) that the suspect was given $250.00 to beat up this person.
Won't even cover his bail. And if the FBI charges him with a hate crime, his goose is cooked.
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The Annoyed Man
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Re: Would you shoot?

#18

Post by The Annoyed Man » Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:24 am

I think we sometimes fail to consider how important our instincts might be when we contemplate scenarios like this. One such instinct might be: "as a white man without law enforcement authority or backup on the way, I’m not about to wade into an angry and aroused mob of black people, whom I don’t know personally and who don’t know me, without my knowing ALL the facts involved." That’s not racism talking. That’s both the voice of experience, and the voice of acknowledgement that we live in troubled times where race IS an issue, whether or not we want it to be. If you reverse the roles, very few people would criticize a black observer for refusing to wade into a crowd of angry and worked up white people, or an Asian observer for refusing to wade into a crowd of angry and worked up Hispanics. I hate that that’s the way things are, but that IS the way things are, and only a fool would fail to take that into account.

The whole idea is to avoid having to shoot someone unless it’s absolutely necessary. If you wade into an angry mob, you may end up having to shoot someone just to protect yourself - let alone to protect the victim of the mob. By itself, that argues for great caution. When you add the race variable into the equation, the risks go up exponentially.

I am NOT arguing against helping people whose race may be different from our own.....we are all God's creatures. What I AM saying is that, in today’s hyper-divided world where politicians fan the flames of separation rather than the spreading the balm of unity, if you are of a different race than the mob, it is unrealistic to assume that race will not play a part in the mob's reaction to your actions. Absent that knowledge, do I want to risk killing someone? No, I don’t.

And if that is an unrealistic assumption, then failing to take it into account in your OODA loop may very well end you up with a result you had not wanted or considered.

All of that argues for being a good witness. All of us have our personal Rubicons when it comes to involving ourselves in the business of others. Mine is the abuse of children. There is absolutely no question that I would get involved if the victim were a child. But the victim in this case was an adult, and in this case, I would have had no way of knowing why he (the gender-dysphoric still have the DNA of their biological gender) was getting a beat down.
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Re: Would you shoot?

#19

Post by parabelum » Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:14 pm

Maybe deploy a non-lethal force and try to deescalate first.
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Re: Would you shoot?

#20

Post by MaduroBU » Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:23 am

Bitter Clinger wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:10 pm
Again, we never get the full story initially or a complete understanding of who / what started it. The media seems to conveniently forget those details.

Just like the Deep Ellum incident where we saw the woman being beaten, they neglect to tell us what preceded. In the Deep Ellum incident the woman was drunk, driving the wrong way down the street, blocked the car of someone who had been working long hours, and the woman was clearly belligerent and she struck the male first. Does that justify the beating?

Here the man / woman backed his / her vehicle into another person's car and then early on we saw footage of him / her prancing about and apparently acting the fool. Does that justify the beating?

How's that go? Don't write a check with your mouth...

Both of these incidents seem to have been compounded by the so-called victim. Its really not so simple.
I strongly agree. Entrance into an interpersonal dispute requires that you take a side or oppose everyone. If the threat of death or lasting harm is so great that you must get involved, you're not going to Wyatt Earp the mob back to civility and order. That leaves you at minimum opposed to a minority of the participants in an ongoing act of violence, and possibly facing down all of them. The cops have the muscle and authority to break a few bones to remind folks of their manners, whereas you're likely outnumbered and have recourse only to a sidearm and an argument for self defense.


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Re: Would you shoot?

#21

Post by Killadocg23 » Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:38 am

Bitter Clinger wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:10 pm
Again, we never get the full story initially or a complete understanding of who / what started it. The media seems to conveniently forget those details.

Just like the Deep Ellum incident where we saw the woman being beaten, they neglect to tell us what preceded. In the Deep Ellum incident the woman was drunk, driving the wrong way down the street, blocked the car of someone who had been working long hours, and the woman was clearly belligerent and she struck the male first. Does that justify the beating?

Here the man / woman backed his / her vehicle into another person's car and then early on we saw footage of him / her prancing about and apparently acting the fool. Does that justify the beating?

How's that go? Don't write a check with your mouth...

Both of these incidents seem to have been compounded by the so-called victim. Its really not so simple.
I have a hypothetical question for you, as you seem to have sided with the gentleman that pulled a gun on this lady.

If she was related to you and you saw him pull a gun out on her would you have shot him? Let’s disregard the fact that she was drunk or belligerent etc or even assaulted him first as you say. And please don’t say oh “my family member would never act that way etc”. Hypothetically would you have shot him if she was a family member and you saw him pull a gun on her? Yes or no?


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Re: Would you shoot?

#22

Post by jordanmills » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:01 am

Probably not. It isn't my fight, and I wouldn't know what led to what I stumbled over the middle of. I probably would make sure I was ready to drop every mfer involved, make sure I was way out of reach, yell that I'm calling the cops, and then call them. I'd hope they don't bring the situation to me, try to be a good witness, then render aid as able when the violence is over. Of course I say all this from my metaphorical armchair.

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Bitter Clinger
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Re: Would you shoot?

#23

Post by Bitter Clinger » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:09 am

Killadocg23 wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:38 am
Bitter Clinger wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:10 pm
Again, we never get the full story initially or a complete understanding of who / what started it. The media seems to conveniently forget those details.

Just like the Deep Ellum incident where we saw the woman being beaten, they neglect to tell us what preceded. In the Deep Ellum incident the woman was drunk, driving the wrong way down the street, blocked the car of someone who had been working long hours, and the woman was clearly belligerent and she struck the male first. Does that justify the beating?

Here the man / woman backed his / her vehicle into another person's car and then early on we saw footage of him / her prancing about and apparently acting the fool. Does that justify the beating?

How's that go? Don't write a check with your mouth...

Both of these incidents seem to have been compounded by the so-called victim. Its really not so simple.
I have a hypothetical question for you, as you seem to have sided with the gentleman that pulled a gun on this lady.

If she was related to you and you saw him pull a gun out on her would you have shot him? Let’s disregard the fact that she was drunk or belligerent etc or even assaulted him first as you say. And please don’t say oh “my family member would never act that way etc”. Hypothetically would you have shot him if she was a family member and you saw him pull a gun on her? Yes or no?
You continue to want to imprint your prejudices on to me. I have no dog in this hunt, I am asking for insights from others. You should ask yourself why are you reacting this way? What is your inherent bias?
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PriestTheRunner
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Re: Would you shoot?

#24

Post by PriestTheRunner » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:53 am

Voice,
Distance,
OC Spray the Whole Group... In that order.

The firearm is only if my life is threatened afterwards. Thats why you should carry non-lethals, it gives you options.

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K.Mooneyham
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Re: Would you shoot?

#25

Post by K.Mooneyham » Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:33 am

The real question here is why would I be in Oak Cliff? Answer: I wouldn't be. Been living out here in my little town for coming up on five years; I have noted zero public fist fights, much less any crowd-gathering beatdowns.


Alf
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Re: Would you shoot?

#26

Post by Alf » Mon May 20, 2019 12:03 pm

Somebody did shoot. http://www.fox4news.com/news/transgende ... n-shooting
Police have confirmed that Muhlaysia Booker was fatally shot in the 7200 block of Valley Glen Dr.


Rob72
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Re: Would you shoot?

#27

Post by Rob72 » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:09 am

Alf wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 12:03 pm
Somebody did shoot. http://www.fox4news.com/news/transgende ... n-shooting
Police have confirmed that Muhlaysia Booker was fatally shot in the 7200 block of Valley Glen Dr.
Good bit more to the back story it would appear...

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Re: Would you shoot?

#28

Post by 03Lightningrocks » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:44 am

Maybe one of the people who originally attacked him took some revenge. That kind of lifestyle has inherent risks.

To the original question of the post. No, I would not shoot. I am responsible to me and my families safety. Regardless of race/sexual orientation of another person. I am not Batman.

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Re: Would you shoot?

#29

Post by Stick_Shift » Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:34 pm

Under the described circumstances, I wouldn’t shoot. I’m not in danger. My family is not in danger. No reason to kill anyone under those conditions.

Call 911? Sure. The problem is that this could quickly escalate to a subdural hematoma and a dead body. At that point, there was an opportunity to prevent a murder and it was passed by.
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Re: Would you shoot?

#30

Post by baseballguy2001 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:29 am

No, not a shoot situation, unless directly threatened. This is, a be a great witness situation. Call 911, describe everything, get the side streets, cross streets, the direction people are going, color of cars, everything as much as possible.
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