IN: CHL wrestling with 4 year old son ND shoots both in head, son dies

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philip964
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IN: CHL wrestling with 4 year old son ND shoots both in head, son dies

#1

Post by philip964 » Sat Jan 25, 2020 1:25 pm



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Re: IN: CHL wrestling with 4 year old son ND shoots both in head, son dies

#2

Post by K.Mooneyham » Sun Jan 26, 2020 11:55 am

EDITED TO ADD THE WORD accidentally FOR CLARITY.

The gun fell and went off? Really, that's the one they're going with? A little kid is dead, and that's what they're going with? Please, someone who is an expert, tell me when the last handgun that wasn't drop-safe under most conditions (to include a fall from the height of a bed) was offered for general sale in the USA. I know it's been a long time now. Sure, there are some old handguns that can be made to go (accidentally) off if they have a round in the chamber and are cocked, and odds do exist that the dad in that story might have had one...but IMHO, those are some slim odds. Again, a child is dead and that worn-out statement "fell and went off" doesn't help anyone, unless something foul was done.

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Re: IN: CHL wrestling with 4 year old son ND shoots both in head, son dies

#3

Post by Flightmare » Sun Jan 26, 2020 7:42 pm

K.Mooneyham wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 11:55 am
EDITED TO ADD THE WORD accidentally FOR CLARITY.

The gun fell and went off? Really, that's the one they're going with? A little kid is dead, and that's what they're going with? Please, someone who is an expert, tell me when the last handgun that wasn't drop-safe under most conditions (to include a fall from the height of a bed) was offered for general sale in the USA. I know it's been a long time now. Sure, there are some old handguns that can be made to go (accidentally) off if they have a round in the chamber and are cocked, and odds do exist that the dad in that story might have had one...but IMHO, those are some slim odds. Again, a child is dead and that worn-out statement "fell and went off" doesn't help anyone, unless something foul was done.
Could be a P320 that was never fixed in the recall.
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Re: IN: CHL wrestling with 4 year old son ND shoots both in head, son dies

#4

Post by flechero » Sun Jan 26, 2020 8:19 pm

the whole story is fishy....

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Re: IN: CHL wrestling with 4 year old son ND shoots both in head, son dies

#5

Post by Jago668 » Sun Jan 26, 2020 8:27 pm

K.Mooneyham wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 11:55 am
EDITED TO ADD THE WORD accidentally FOR CLARITY.

The gun fell and went off? Really, that's the one they're going with? A little kid is dead, and that's what they're going with? Please, someone who is an expert, tell me when the last handgun that wasn't drop-safe under most conditions (to include a fall from the height of a bed) was offered for general sale in the USA. I know it's been a long time now. Sure, there are some old handguns that can be made to go (accidentally) off if they have a round in the chamber and are cocked, and odds do exist that the dad in that story might have had one...but IMHO, those are some slim odds. Again, a child is dead and that worn-out statement "fell and went off" doesn't help anyone, unless something foul was done.
It's entirely possible the gun fell, guy grabbed for it. It's pretty instinctual, and this is why most of the gun classes I've been to tell people not to grab at them. Just let them hit the ground, and then pick it up. Similar to trying to grab a falling knife.
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Re: IN: CHL wrestling with 4 year old son ND shoots both in head, son dies

#6

Post by Oldgringo » Sun Jan 26, 2020 9:55 pm

Stuff happens. I'm not qualified to judge this, the boy's mother and daddy will have to live with this, the rest of their lives. We should, er ....uh, buzz off!

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Re: IN: CHL wrestling with 4 year old son ND shoots both in head, son dies

#7

Post by Syntyr » Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:49 am

I suspect this is right up there with the dancing FBI agent at the party. He does a back flip and his unsecured weapon falls out, he grabs for it and shoots a guest.
:banghead:

https://ionigeria.com/accidental-discha ... rty-video/
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Re: IN: CHL wrestling with 4 year old son ND shoots both in head, son dies

#8

Post by surprise_i'm_armed » Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:34 pm

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nat ... 581092002/

I googled around to find more information on this story. The link above details that the pistol was a Glock, model unknown, and the man was carrying in his pants.

An earlier report I read on this said that the pistol was being carried small of back. No mention if holstered or Mexican carried.

The Indiana LEO's have taken the pistol to their site for examination. They want to determine the condition of the Glock.

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Re: IN: CHL wrestling with 4 year old son ND shoots both in head, son dies

#9

Post by 03Lightningrocks » Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:38 pm

surprise_i'm_armed wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:34 pm
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nat ... 581092002/

I googled around to find more information on this story. The link above details that the pistol was a Glock, model unknown, and the man was carrying in his pants.

An earlier report I read on this said that the pistol was being carried small of back. No mention if holstered or Mexican carried.

The Indiana LEO's have taken the pistol to their site for examination. They want to determine the condition of the Glock.

SIA
So he was carrying small of back with no holster? I don't know that I have heard anything about Glocks going off from simply hitting the ground. My bet is that somehow a finger or something resembling a finger accidentally got in the trigger guard and pulled the trigger. Then it landed on the ground from the recoil.


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Re: IN: CHL wrestling with 4 year old son ND shoots both in head, son dies

#10

Post by LDP » Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:37 pm

03Lightningrocks wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:38 pm
My bet is that somehow a finger or something resembling a finger accidentally got in the trigger guard and pulled the trigger.
That is exactly why I am a strong advocate of grip safety or manual safety. Pulling on the trigger alone could really happen accidentally, as witnessed in this tragic event.

We are humans, we make mistakes. Admitting it is the first step toward safety. The next step is to learn from our mistakes and ensure they don't happen again. Hence my preference of more than 1 safety mechanism. But that is just my personal preference, YMMV.

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Re: IN: CHL wrestling with 4 year old son ND shoots both in head, son dies

#11

Post by Liberty » Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:24 am

LDP wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:37 pm
03Lightningrocks wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:38 pm
My bet is that somehow a finger or something resembling a finger accidentally got in the trigger guard and pulled the trigger.
That is exactly why I am a strong advocate of grip safety or manual safety. Pulling on the trigger alone could really happen accidentally, as witnessed in this tragic event.

We are humans, we make mistakes. Admitting it is the first step toward safety. The next step is to learn from our mistakes and ensure they don't happen again. Hence my preference of more than 1 safety mechanism. But that is just my personal preference, YMMV.
This incident is a series of errors, as in a lot of accidental shootings if you remove any one of a series of issues the boy would still be alive.

Carry the gun in a good holster and it won't fall out.
If you are going to horseplay disarm your self.
Never ever grab at a falling gun.
If this was a gun with a real safety and a long double action first trigger this wouldn't have happened.

I'm not saying that no one should ever carry a Glock, but if they do they should really pay attention to their carry method. Mexican carry with a Beretta P92 to check your mailbox is not as risky as doing so with a Glock or similar striker-fired weapon. Safeties aren't that complicated to operate and people who find them too confusing to operate probably will have issues operating the trigger and controlling the muzzle. Yes, the real safety is the safety between our ears, but when it comes to being safe a backup plan is always a good idea. Being safe isn't a one item fix, it's built on layers. Those familiar with occupational safety will understand that engineered controls are better administrative controls.

I sure wish they would start selling affordable traditional DA/SA complete with hammer and safety again. It's been years since I've bought a new handgun. Seems it's only the hi-price European models that are available and the costs drive the novice away.
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Re: IN: CHL wrestling with 4 year old son ND shoots both in head, son dies

#12

Post by 03Lightningrocks » Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:03 am

Liberty wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:24 am
LDP wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:37 pm
03Lightningrocks wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:38 pm
My bet is that somehow a finger or something resembling a finger accidentally got in the trigger guard and pulled the trigger.
That is exactly why I am a strong advocate of grip safety or manual safety. Pulling on the trigger alone could really happen accidentally, as witnessed in this tragic event.

We are humans, we make mistakes. Admitting it is the first step toward safety. The next step is to learn from our mistakes and ensure they don't happen again. Hence my preference of more than 1 safety mechanism. But that is just my personal preference, YMMV.
This incident is a series of errors, as in a lot of accidental shootings if you remove any one of a series of issues the boy would still be alive.

Carry the gun in a good holster and it won't fall out.
If you are going to horseplay disarm your self.
Never ever grab at a falling gun.
If this was a gun with a real safety and a long double action first trigger this wouldn't have happened.

I'm not saying that no one should ever carry a Glock, but if they do they should really pay attention to their carry method. Mexican carry with a Beretta P92 to check your mailbox is not as risky as doing so with a Glock or similar striker-fired weapon. Safeties aren't that complicated to operate and people who find them too confusing to operate probably will have issues operating the trigger and controlling the muzzle. Yes, the real safety is the safety between our ears, but when it comes to being safe a backup plan is always a good idea. Being safe isn't a one item fix, it's built on layers. Those familiar with occupational safety will understand that engineered controls are better administrative controls.

I sure wish they would start selling affordable traditional DA/SA complete with hammer and safety again. It's been years since I've bought a new handgun. Seems it's only the hi-price European models that are available and the costs drive the novice away.
All very valid points. I purchased my first Glock in 1986. A Glock 17. At first the "safety/trigger" system concerned me. I would keep the gun unchambered until ready to fire it. I did this for maybe 3 years. I was genuinly worried about having a safety ON THE TRIGGER...WOW. But then I grew accustomed to it when I purchased my second glock, a Glock 19. Now I own several Glocks and the "trigger safety" still concerns me but I do carry with a round chambered. The issue of finger on trigger equals bang did become more apparent to me after owning Glocks. In that aspect, Glock made me a safer firearm owner. :mrgreen:


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Re: IN: CHL wrestling with 4 year old son ND shoots both in head, son dies

#13

Post by Rob72 » Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:22 am

It wasn't the fault of the tool, but of the tool carrying. If one insists on doing stoopid things, pain will ensue.

There are no "safe" firearms, only safe users, and about 800 years of human history demonstrates this.

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Re: IN: CHL wrestling with 4 year old son ND shoots both in head, son dies

#14

Post by carlson1 » Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:55 am

Rob72 wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:22 am
It wasn't the fault of the tool, but of the tool carrying. If one insists on doing stoopid things, pain will ensue.

There are no "safe" firearms, only safe users, and about 800 years of human history demonstrates this.
This.
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Re: IN: CHL wrestling with 4 year old son ND shoots both in head, son dies

#15

Post by oljames3 » Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:48 am

carlson1 wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:55 am
Rob72 wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:22 am
It wasn't the fault of the tool, but of the tool carrying. If one insists on doing stoopid things, pain will ensue.

There are no "safe" firearms, only safe users, and about 800 years of human history demonstrates this.
This.
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