ND at the gun club today during monthly pistol match

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Soccerdad1995
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Re: ND at the gun club today during monthly pistol match

#16

Post by Soccerdad1995 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:08 pm

Am I the only one surprised that anyone is still shooting pistol matches given the current price of ammo (that you can actually get)? If you are not lucky enough to find it in stock at a retailer, then the going price seems to be over 50 cents per round for basic 9mm FMJ ammo.

When I shoot IDPA matches I usually bring 300 rounds with me. That's over $150 in ammo replacement cost for just one match.

If you reload, this would make more sense I guess.
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Re: ND at the gun club today during monthly pistol match

#17

Post by Paladin » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:29 pm

Soccerdad1995 wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:08 pm
Am I the only one surprised that anyone is still shooting pistol matches given the current price of ammo (that you can actually get)? If you are not lucky enough to find it in stock at a retailer, then the going price seems to be over 50 cents per round for basic 9mm FMJ ammo.

When I shoot IDPA matches I usually bring 300 rounds with me. That's over $150 in ammo replacement cost for just one match.

If you reload, this would make more sense I guess.
I bought over 7,000 rounds earlier this year... not counting what I already had... or reloads.
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Re: ND at the gun club today during monthly pistol match

#18

Post by philip964 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:40 pm

Paladin wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:29 pm
Soccerdad1995 wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:08 pm
Am I the only one surprised that anyone is still shooting pistol matches given the current price of ammo (that you can actually get)? If you are not lucky enough to find it in stock at a retailer, then the going price seems to be over 50 cents per round for basic 9mm FMJ ammo.

When I shoot IDPA matches I usually bring 300 rounds with me. That's over $150 in ammo replacement cost for just one match.

If you reload, this would make more sense I guess.
I bought over 7,000 rounds earlier this year... not counting what I already had... or reloads.
A good start, but sounds like you would get the description “arsenal” and the full large king sized blanket in the front yard display for the press, that is if Biden is elected. However, you could be a boater already.


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Re: ND at the gun club today during monthly pistol match

#19

Post by SigM4 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:30 pm

Soccerdad1995 wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:08 pm
Am I the only one surprised that anyone is still shooting pistol matches given the current price of ammo (that you can actually get)? If you are not lucky enough to find it in stock at a retailer, then the going price seems to be over 50 cents per round for basic 9mm FMJ ammo.

When I shoot IDPA matches I usually bring 300 rounds with me. That's over $150 in ammo replacement cost for just one match.

If you reload, this would make more sense I guess.
I’d say probably 75% of the shooters at ours reload (myself included). Total round count for most of our matches is usually 50-75 rounds; so not too heavy.
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Re: ND at the gun club today during monthly pistol match

#20

Post by grim-bob » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:23 pm

Separate from our hoarded ammo.... I usually have 6-12 months of match ammo on hand to plan ahead and usually buy in bulk of 500-1000 rds at a time minimum. I'll still pick up the occasional FMJ boxes when I'm out an about though just for random range ammo... Wife started shooting matches a few months back now too so it has been a challenge to not feel like I'm behind in stock now. Lowest we got was about 2.5 months of match ammo with us both shooting. I never overpaid for any bought ammo though. The most expensive was ~$0.24 a round which was during pandemic which is higher than pre but not horrible. Ammo is still available at near reasonable prices if you are willing to put in effort finding it; it does take persistence though.

I had to start reloading though with 2 of us shooting and my daughter planning to bump up to 9mm from 22 matches before too long. She is going to have to wait till supply settles though. Just started reloading and even during pandemic I have found enough components for ~7k "match" rounds as of last count. So plenty to last 7-8 months if we are conservative. I didn't overpay there either. Paid normal big box store prices so not the cheapest but not gouge prices either.

Lastly we don't shoot our conservation/hoarded ammo. It doesn't get touched unless something serious is happening. So the only struggle is match ammo which is a luxury vs a necessity. If the match ammo runs out then we stop going.
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Re: ND at the gun club today during monthly pistol match

#21

Post by AndyC » Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:01 am

SigM4 wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:54 pm
At the end of a string of fire an older gentleman (who has shot these numerous times before) was instructed to drop his mag and show clear. Instead he dropped his mag and immediately went back to re-holster his firearm. As was doing so a portion of his "race gun" holster somehow got inside the trigger guard of his 1911 and the gun went off.
A cascading series of errors here: He failed to rack his slide and show clear (I'm puzzled how he let that slip - if he has a race-gun one would expect he's experienced), he failed to engage the thumb-safety and he failed to re-holster properly. Well, he got the lesson learned the hard way, I guess.
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Re: ND at the gun club today during monthly pistol match

#22

Post by imkopaka » Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:39 am

Odinvalknir wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:24 pm
Someone told me once, there are no ACCIDENTAL discharges. Only negligent ones. Point being when dealing with a tool such as a firearm, you shouldn't allow any accidents. I feel that's true. In the chemical plants our safety culture says ALL accidents are preventable, both with proper training and planning.
That's a common mindset. I disagree. While 99% of unintentional discharges are negligent, there are some that are truly accidental. Striker-fired handguns in particular have occasionally suffered from manufacturing defects that resulted in a shot going off when it shouldn't have. True accidental discharges are rare, but they happen. I once saw a video of somebody whose weapon was already holstered and secured and it just went off for no reason because the seer failed and shot him in the leg. Sig Sauer had the issue with the light triggers a few years back that caused several accidental discharges. Machine guns (or other guns if you're abusing the heck out of them) can have cook-offs - I've seen it happen in person. I dislike when people say there is no such thing as an accidental discharge because it puts the preconception in your mind that it is always the fault of the shooter - so firmly, in fact, that when an accidental discharge actually does occur, the victim doesn't get a chance to explain himself and is immediately held up as an example of failure. I think we owe the gun community a smidge more fairness than that.
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Re: ND at the gun club today during monthly pistol match

#23

Post by AndyC » Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:29 am

imkopaka wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:39 am
Odinvalknir wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:24 pm
Someone told me once, there are no ACCIDENTAL discharges. Only negligent ones. Point being when dealing with a tool such as a firearm, you shouldn't allow any accidents. I feel that's true. In the chemical plants our safety culture says ALL accidents are preventable, both with proper training and planning.
That's a common mindset. I disagree. While 99% of unintentional discharges are negligent, there are some that are truly accidental. Striker-fired handguns in particular have occasionally suffered from manufacturing defects that resulted in a shot going off when it shouldn't have. True accidental discharges are rare, but they happen.
:iagree:

I'll give you an example. I worked at an indoor range when I was young and an old codger came in with a Baby Browning .25 - he came out after shooting a while, saying he was having an issue with it.

I went in and had a look - the pistol was laying on its side and pointing downrange so I picked it up (keeping it pointed downrange, finger off the trigger) and used the heel mag-release to get the mag out to clear the pistol - whereupon it fired. The old coot went bananas but I didn't care about his erroneous opinion, my finger was nowhere near the trigger. I suspect the slight jarring of the pistol while trying to get the mag out was enough to allow the (very primitive) sear on the firing-pin to slip off and fire the pistol.

My negligence? Nope - just wear and tear combined with a poor design.

I guess what those people really mean is that almost always a claim of an AD can actually be traced back to negligence of some kind - but I don't usually bother to argue over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
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Re: ND at the gun club today during monthly pistol match

#24

Post by Odinvalknir » Tue Sep 22, 2020 2:16 pm

AndyC wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:29 am
imkopaka wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:39 am
Odinvalknir wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:24 pm
Someone told me once, there are no ACCIDENTAL discharges. Only negligent ones. Point being when dealing with a tool such as a firearm, you shouldn't allow any accidents. I feel that's true. In the chemical plants our safety culture says ALL accidents are preventable, both with proper training and planning.
That's a common mindset. I disagree. While 99% of unintentional discharges are negligent, there are some that are truly accidental. Striker-fired handguns in particular have occasionally suffered from manufacturing defects that resulted in a shot going off when it shouldn't have. True accidental discharges are rare, but they happen.
:iagree:

I'll give you an example. I worked at an indoor range when I was young and an old codger came in with a Baby Browning .25 - he came out after shooting a while, saying he was having an issue with it.

I went in and had a look - the pistol was laying on its side and pointing downrange so I picked it up (keeping it pointed downrange, finger off the trigger) and used the heel mag-release to get the mag out to clear the pistol - whereupon it fired. The old coot went bananas but I didn't care about his erroneous opinion, my finger was nowhere near the trigger. I suspect the slight jarring of the pistol while trying to get the mag out was enough to allow the (very primitive) sear on the firing-pin to slip off and fire the pistol.

My negligence? Nope - just wear and tear combined with a poor design.

I guess what those people really mean is that almost always a claim of an AD can actually be traced back to negligence of some kind - but I don't usually bother to argue over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.


I would say that was STILL caused by negligence. Maybe not yours, but definitely someone's. Same with the issues that plauged the p320 when it first released. None of that constitutes 'accidental' to me. There should be ABSOLUTELY ZERO room for any kind of accidents when dealing with a deadly weapon. Yes humans make mistakes, but those mistakes can usually be mitigated by proper handling and training. Hell even knowledge of how to clear jams, and issues.

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Re: ND at the gun club today during monthly pistol match

#25

Post by 03Lightningrocks » Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:29 pm

AndyC wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:29 am
imkopaka wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:39 am
Odinvalknir wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:24 pm
Someone told me once, there are no ACCIDENTAL discharges. Only negligent ones. Point being when dealing with a tool such as a firearm, you shouldn't allow any accidents. I feel that's true. In the chemical plants our safety culture says ALL accidents are preventable, both with proper training and planning.
That's a common mindset. I disagree. While 99% of unintentional discharges are negligent, there are some that are truly accidental. Striker-fired handguns in particular have occasionally suffered from manufacturing defects that resulted in a shot going off when it shouldn't have. True accidental discharges are rare, but they happen.
:iagree:

I'll give you an example. I worked at an indoor range when I was young and an old codger came in with a Baby Browning .25 - he came out after shooting a while, saying he was having an issue with it.

I went in and had a look - the pistol was laying on its side and pointing downrange so I picked it up (keeping it pointed downrange, finger off the trigger) and used the heel mag-release to get the mag out to clear the pistol - whereupon it fired. The old coot went bananas but I didn't care about his erroneous opinion, my finger was nowhere near the trigger. I suspect the slight jarring of the pistol while trying to get the mag out was enough to allow the (very primitive) sear on the firing-pin to slip off and fire the pistol.

My negligence? Nope - just wear and tear combined with a poor design.

I guess what those people really mean is that almost always a claim of an AD can actually be traced back to negligence of some kind - but I don't usually bother to argue over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
I agree. An accidental discharge can happen. For instance I owned one of those Remington bolt actions that would fire a round off when you operated the bolt. The only part of that scenario happening that could be considered negligent would be having the barrel pointed in an unsafe direction when trying to operate the bolt. Firearms can malfunction. That is one reason we have a rule concerning the direction the muzzle is pointed in.

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Re: ND at the gun club today during monthly pistol match

#26

Post by AndyC » Tue Sep 22, 2020 5:43 pm

Odinvalknir wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 2:16 pm
AndyC wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:29 am
imkopaka wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:39 am
Odinvalknir wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:24 pm
Someone told me once, there are no ACCIDENTAL discharges. Only negligent ones. Point being when dealing with a tool such as a firearm, you shouldn't allow any accidents. I feel that's true. In the chemical plants our safety culture says ALL accidents are preventable, both with proper training and planning.
That's a common mindset. I disagree. While 99% of unintentional discharges are negligent, there are some that are truly accidental. Striker-fired handguns in particular have occasionally suffered from manufacturing defects that resulted in a shot going off when it shouldn't have. True accidental discharges are rare, but they happen.
:iagree:

I'll give you an example. I worked at an indoor range when I was young and an old codger came in with a Baby Browning .25 - he came out after shooting a while, saying he was having an issue with it.

I went in and had a look - the pistol was laying on its side and pointing downrange so I picked it up (keeping it pointed downrange, finger off the trigger) and used the heel mag-release to get the mag out to clear the pistol - whereupon it fired. The old coot went bananas but I didn't care about his erroneous opinion, my finger was nowhere near the trigger. I suspect the slight jarring of the pistol while trying to get the mag out was enough to allow the (very primitive) sear on the firing-pin to slip off and fire the pistol.

My negligence? Nope - just wear and tear combined with a poor design.

I guess what those people really mean is that almost always a claim of an AD can actually be traced back to negligence of some kind - but I don't usually bother to argue over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.


I would say that was STILL caused by negligence. Maybe not yours, but definitely someone's. Same with the issues that plauged the p320 when it first released. None of that constitutes 'accidental' to me. There should be ABSOLUTELY ZERO room for any kind of accidents when dealing with a deadly weapon. Yes humans make mistakes, but those mistakes can usually be mitigated by proper handling and training. Hell even knowledge of how to clear jams, and issues.
I'm more concerned with negligent gunhandling - I'm not even going to bother getting into design defects or metallurgy issues beyong an owner or designer's control. You want perfection - doesn't exist. All we can do is make sure we do our damndest that OUR actions weren't negligent, and yes, that absolutely includes the training you mention - and using it properly. See the first line of my signature.
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Re: ND at the gun club today during monthly pistol match

#27

Post by SigM4 » Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:06 am

AndyC wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:01 am
SigM4 wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:54 pm
At the end of a string of fire an older gentleman (who has shot these numerous times before) was instructed to drop his mag and show clear. Instead he dropped his mag and immediately went back to re-holster his firearm. As was doing so a portion of his "race gun" holster somehow got inside the trigger guard of his 1911 and the gun went off.
A cascading series of errors here: He failed to rack his slide and show clear (I'm puzzled how he let that slip - if he has a race-gun one would expect he's experienced), he failed to engage the thumb-safety and he failed to re-holster properly. Well, he got the lesson learned the hard way, I guess.
No race gun, just the skeletonized race gun holster type that you typically see those guys run. And yes, he failed to follow the "unload and show clear" command which would have been the first step in preventing this. Despite being a long time shooter I get the feeling that he's new to the world of pistol matches. I also get the feeling that he's chasing the newest/bestest gear.

Having had some time to mull over the event I feel like it was most likely a case of a new(er) shooter to the event trying to look cool and keep up with the more seasoned guys. Which is ironic due to the fact that no one at this match takes it (or themselves) too seriously. I've shot plenty of IDPA and a little USPSA and this is no where close to either of those. All anyone out there cares about is going out to have some fun and some good conversation.

Hopefully he, and everyone present, learn from the event. I know I for one will be more diligent in clearing the gun each time. I was already pretty slow about it (on purpose) to ensure the match director could clearly see the empty chamber.
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Re: ND at the gun club today during monthly pistol match

#28

Post by imkopaka » Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:02 am

Odinvalknir wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 2:16 pm
AndyC wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:29 am
imkopaka wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:39 am
Odinvalknir wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:24 pm
Someone told me once, there are no ACCIDENTAL discharges. Only negligent ones. Point being when dealing with a tool such as a firearm, you shouldn't allow any accidents. I feel that's true. In the chemical plants our safety culture says ALL accidents are preventable, both with proper training and planning.
That's a common mindset. I disagree. While 99% of unintentional discharges are negligent, there are some that are truly accidental. Striker-fired handguns in particular have occasionally suffered from manufacturing defects that resulted in a shot going off when it shouldn't have. True accidental discharges are rare, but they happen.
:iagree:

I'll give you an example. I worked at an indoor range when I was young and an old codger came in with a Baby Browning .25 - he came out after shooting a while, saying he was having an issue with it.

I went in and had a look - the pistol was laying on its side and pointing downrange so I picked it up (keeping it pointed downrange, finger off the trigger) and used the heel mag-release to get the mag out to clear the pistol - whereupon it fired. The old coot went bananas but I didn't care about his erroneous opinion, my finger was nowhere near the trigger. I suspect the slight jarring of the pistol while trying to get the mag out was enough to allow the (very primitive) sear on the firing-pin to slip off and fire the pistol.

My negligence? Nope - just wear and tear combined with a poor design.

I guess what those people really mean is that almost always a claim of an AD can actually be traced back to negligence of some kind - but I don't usually bother to argue over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.


I would say that was STILL caused by negligence. Maybe not yours, but definitely someone's. Same with the issues that plauged the p320 when it first released. None of that constitutes 'accidental' to me. There should be ABSOLUTELY ZERO room for any kind of accidents when dealing with a deadly weapon. Yes humans make mistakes, but those mistakes can usually be mitigated by proper handling and training. Hell even knowledge of how to clear jams, and issues.
Negligence by definition requires the actor to have known better, taken shortcuts, or failed to do basic due diligence. I don't think we can hold engineering issues, machining issues, poor design from inexperienced designers, or part failure to the same standard as an operator following five basic weapon safety rules. Do those issues create some kind of responsibility or even liability for the manufacturer? Sure. But that's different from negligence IMO. Additionally, we are talking about the discharge here. Root cause analysis usually comes a little later; initially people are focused on the person controlling (or failing to control) the gun when it went off. It is either intentional (gun and shooter both operated correctly), negligent (gun operated correctly, shooter did not), or accidental (shooter operated correctly, gun did not).
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Re: ND at the gun club today during monthly pistol match

#29

Post by Beiruty » Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:17 am

Yo'all, as an RO, he is my 2 cents
1) New shooters, or even seasoned shooters, when they go into competition mode they lose focus on the basics. Their main focus is the target and sight picture. Even the basics such as girp and trigger control are out of the window. Add, to that the RO has to keep his attention all the time on the pistol and, shooter's finger, and the holster.
2) All the time, I see shooters wearing shirts semi-tucked in that would interfere with safe holstering. I stop the shooter from starting his string of shoot until that safety risk has been corrected
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Re: ND at the gun club today during monthly pistol match

#30

Post by AndyC » Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:51 am

SigM4 wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:06 am
AndyC wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:01 am
SigM4 wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:54 pm
At the end of a string of fire an older gentleman (who has shot these numerous times before) was instructed to drop his mag and show clear. Instead he dropped his mag and immediately went back to re-holster his firearm. As was doing so a portion of his "race gun" holster somehow got inside the trigger guard of his 1911 and the gun went off.
A cascading series of errors here: He failed to rack his slide and show clear (I'm puzzled how he let that slip - if he has a race-gun one would expect he's experienced), he failed to engage the thumb-safety and he failed to re-holster properly. Well, he got the lesson learned the hard way, I guess.
No race gun, just the skeletonized race gun holster type that you typically see those guys run. And yes, he failed to follow the "unload and show clear" command which would have been the first step in preventing this. Despite being a long time shooter I get the feeling that he's new to the world of pistol matches. I also get the feeling that he's chasing the newest/bestest gear.

Having had some time to mull over the event I feel like it was most likely a case of a new(er) shooter to the event trying to look cool and keep up with the more seasoned guys. Which is ironic due to the fact that no one at this match takes it (or themselves) too seriously. I've shot plenty of IDPA and a little USPSA and this is no where close to either of those. All anyone out there cares about is going out to have some fun and some good conversation.

Hopefully he, and everyone present, learn from the event. I know I for one will be more diligent in clearing the gun each time. I was already pretty slow about it (on purpose) to ensure the match director could clearly see the empty chamber.
One reason I'm not fond of guys just buying gucci gear simply because Tier 1 guys (whether military or high-speed gamesmen) use it - which I've argued about on this forum before to deaf ears. They need to learn the whys and hows of the gear, not just the whats.
Last edited by AndyC on Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
Remember Kitty Genovese

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Amateurs skip safety-checks - pros don't.
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There's nothing quite like the offer of 230 grains to a man's chest to remind him of his manners

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