VA declares veteran to be incompetent, denied RKBA

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srothstein
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Re: VA declares veteran to be incompetent, denied RKBA

#16

Post by srothstein » Sat Sep 11, 2010 7:41 pm

ELB wrote:Per NRA-ILA, it had the following in it:
Prevents use of federal “adjudications” that consist only of medical diagnoses without findings that the people involved are dangerous or mentally incompetent. This would ensure that purely medical records are never used in NICS. Gun ownership rights would only be lost as a result of a finding that the person is a danger to themselves or others, or lacks the capacity to manage his own affairs.
I am still wondering if this guy actually went through some adjudication board after being on "stipend" or getting a disability rating or whatever and didn't realize it. To my knowledge most review boards are not like in the movies, in a big room with the subject person facing all these people at a table. It would not surprise me if it is just some docs going through medical records and recording their votes/reccomendations. You would think Irelans would get a letter, but did he realize what it meant? Dunno. Wait and see.
I thought I would point out that the diagnoses is allowed under this law if it includes a judgment of incompetence, as was stated by the OP. It certainly seems to me that the VA medical review board (whatever the proper name) that determined him to be eligible for a pension would then be reported under this law as an adjudication of incompetence.
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seamusTX
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Re: VA declares veteran to be incompetent, denied RKBA

#17

Post by seamusTX » Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:46 pm

Dr. John Lott is on this story. I just couldn't find the link earlier:
http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/2010/09/v ... -away.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This leads to H.R.327, the Joshua Omvig Veterans Suicide Prevention Act, which President Bush signed into law in 2007 as Public Law 110–110.

http://www.opencongress.org/bill/110-h327/show" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: VA declares veteran to be incompetent, denied RKBA

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Post by ELB » Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:51 pm

I saw Lott's post earlier, and read the text of HR 327, and frankly I didn't see much direct connection. The bill is only one page long. Sen Coburn had heartburn with it because at one point it apparently had a provision dealing with something gun- or NICS- related, but I could not find out exactly what, or what the outcome was. When I started looking into NICS is when I saw the NICS improvement act and the Clinton history, which seems much more relevent.
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Re: VA declares veteran to be incompetent, denied RKBA

#19

Post by C-dub » Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:54 pm

seamusTX wrote:
ELB wrote:Right now I think there is equal liklihood that a) there is a malevolent attempt by Holder's Justice Department to brand returning military as nuts and trample on their rights by querying the VA for info on who has been treated (versus who has been "adjudicated);...
There are supposed to be firewalls to prevent this sort of thing. Medical diagnosis and treatment per se are supposed to be confidential. Either revealing the information or digging it out without proper authority is a serious offense.

Not that federal officials haven't committed serious offenses before. But usually they do it for personal or political gain, not ideology.

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The problem I see with the confidentiality here is that the government is his doctor. However, isn't being treated for or having a diagnosis of depression grounds for denial or revocation of a CHL? And I know what PTSD stands for, but isn't it also a form of depression and many of the same meds are used for both?
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Re: VA declares veteran to be incompetent, denied RKBA

#20

Post by seamusTX » Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:15 pm

The government isn't some monolithic organization. Various departments can hardly work together when they want to.

PTSD is not simply depression. PTSD may involve depression, anxiety, violent and suicidal impulses, flashbacks, psychosis, and other features.

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Re: VA declares veteran to be incompetent, denied RKBA

#21

Post by Hoi Polloi » Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:19 pm

C-dub wrote:The problem I see with the confidentiality here is that the government is his doctor. However, isn't being treated for or having a diagnosis of depression grounds for denial or revocation of a CHL? And I know what PTSD stands for, but isn't it also a form of depression and many of the same meds are used for both?
It's a form of anxiety that develops due to a traumatic event and lasts for an extended period and significantly affects one's ability to function. While those who have PTSD can also be depressed, and pre-existing depression increases one's chances of developing PTSD following a traumatic event, PTSD is not a form of depression nor is it a mood disorder like depression.

Beta-blockers (primarily a cardiac medication), hormonal steroids like hydrocortisone, morphine, anti-anxiety medicines, anti-depression medicines, and others are all used for PTSD patients. They actually have no idea how exactly many of these medication work on the body and brain, despite the cute little pharmacology ads to the contrary, and they just try it to see if it will work based on the particular symptoms that the patient is having the most difficulty with (re-experiencing, avoidance, or hyperarousal). They call it the practice of medicine for a reason.
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Re: VA declares veteran to be incompetent, denied RKBA

#22

Post by C-dub » Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:30 pm

So, depression could be an issue in this case that hasn't been mentioned. Maybe.

Now, the thing that I find interesting is that there are probably LE officers in various agencies diagnosed with PTSD and currently undergoing treatment that are still allowed to carry a gun and continue to work in their law enforcement capacity. What is different about a human being that is LE versus anyone else?
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Re: VA declares veteran to be incompetent, denied RKBA

#23

Post by seamusTX » Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:39 pm

People in all walks of life get PTSD from all kinds of events such as car wrecks and natural disasters.

The problem here is that a mechanism is in place for some PTSD diagnoses at the VA to into NICS automatically. In civilian life, including the police, the patient would have to be found likely to harm to himself or others or incompetent through a legal process.

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Last edited by seamusTX on Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: VA declares veteran to be incompetent, denied RKBA

#24

Post by chartreuse » Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:40 pm

C-dub wrote:The problem I see with the confidentiality here is that the government is his doctor.
seamusTX wrote:The government isn't some monolithic organization. Various departments can hardly work together when they want to.
Quite. However, due to the sweetheart medical plan that they voted themselves, technically the government is also every hill rat's doctor. But I've yet to see one of them have their guns taken away, even after driving drunk while popping pills, as many of our Senators and Representatives are wont to do. Allegedly.

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Re: VA declares veteran to be incompetent, denied RKBA

#25

Post by seamusTX » Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:44 pm

Government employees in general, including elected officials, are not treated by physicians employed by the government. They have insurance plans, just like most private employees, and are seen by private physicians and hospitals.

The VA and military have government-employed physicians and government-operated hospitals.

As far as I know, only the President and Vice President are seen at military hospitals (Walter Reed, usually).

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Re: VA declares veteran to be incompetent, denied RKBA

#26

Post by jester » Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:51 pm

srothstein wrote:I thought I would point out that the diagnoses is allowed under this law if it includes a judgment of incompetence, as was stated by the OP. It certainly seems to me that the VA medical review board (whatever the proper name) that determined him to be eligible for a pension would then be reported under this law as an adjudication of incompetence.
I agree. It's not only PTSD. Reading between the lines, it sounds like the family is getting money because of a diagnoses/judgment of incompetence.
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Re: VA declares veteran to be incompetent, denied RKBA

#27

Post by Hoi Polloi » Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:52 pm

C-dub wrote:So, depression could be an issue in this case that hasn't been mentioned. Maybe.

Now, the thing that I find interesting is that there are probably LE officers in various agencies diagnosed with PTSD and currently undergoing treatment that are still allowed to carry a gun and continue to work in their law enforcement capacity. What is different about a human being that is LE versus anyone else?
Indeed. He could have extreme insomnia with night terrors, could have problems with extreme aggression and hyper-reactivity, and could have hallucinations for all we know. Or he could stay at home all day because he can't bear to see triggers like military memorials or waving flags or some other great sensitivity which causes him to melt into a puddle of sobs as he has flashbacks. Or maybe he has survivor's guilt and has expressed suicidal ideations.

These are extreme and unlikely examples, but they do serve a purpose. In the first, it would be extremely unwise for him to have ready access to a firearm because he would be very likely to use it against someone else, while the second wouldn't change much of anything if he had a firearm, and in the third, he'd be very likely to use it against himself. What symptoms he has associated with his PTSD and what severity they are would be directly relevant to whether it would affect his ability to safely keep a firearm and whether it was an issue of prudence or imminent safety.
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Re: VA declares veteran to be incompetent, denied RKBA

#28

Post by chartreuse » Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:56 pm

seamusTX wrote:Government employees in general, including elected officials, are not treated by physicians employed by the government. They have insurance plans, just like most private employees, and are seen by private physicians and hospitals.

The VA and military have government-employed physicians and government-operated hospitals.

As far as I know, only the President and Vice President are seen at military hospitals (Walter Reed, usually).

- Jim
My mistake, sorry about that. I'm new to this whole health insurance thing and, I guess, when I see the supposed servants of the people enjoying better care than most of the people, all at the people's expense, I get confused and make assumptions.

Anyway, apologies once again and (in an attempt to get back to the topic under discussion) does anybody know whether Patrick Kennedy still has a CHL?

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Re: VA declares veteran to be incompetent, denied RKBA

#29

Post by seamusTX » Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:07 pm

Ha! Senators and Congressmen would not want to be seen at government-operated hospitals.

While many VA and military hospitals are excellent, many have problems and most are somewhat run-down and subject to long waiting lines.
chartreuse wrote:... does anybody know whether Patrick Kennedy still has a CHL?
I never knew whether he had one in the first place.

Massachusetts requires a permit to buy or own a handgun. That permit also allows the owner to transport the weapon to the range or hunting. It's not really what we think of as a CHL.

The real deal is much more difficult to obtain.

I don't know whether Kennedy was found guilty of DWI or got off. If he did not commit a criminal offense, probably it would not have affected his license, if he has one.

The Kennedys are treated like royalty in Massachusetts anyway.

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Re: VA declares veteran to be incompetent, denied RKBA

#30

Post by Charles L. Cotton » Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:20 pm

Let's get back on topic.

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