Signs for the CHLer

The "What Works, What Doesn't," "Recommendations & Experiences"

Moderators: carlson1, Crossfire


sublevel
Member
Posts in topic: 3
Posts: 48
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:36 am
Location: Mineral Wells, TX
Contact:

Re: Signs for the CHLer

#106

Post by sublevel » Thu Sep 01, 2011 5:44 am

I just got my CHL this week... I was told that what's labeled as a "GUNBUSTER" sign on a building serves as "effictive notice" and you could not carry and you could get served "tresspass" if detected

My mom was mentioning about the nursing home my grandmother is at had sign like that and asked me not to carry when I go visit next

so is that correct? or does a proper 30.06 sign have to be in place?

Thanks

User avatar

MasterOfNone
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 1276
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:00 am
Location: Dallas
Contact:

Re: Signs for the CHLer

#107

Post by MasterOfNone » Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:26 am

sublevel wrote:I just got my CHL this week... I was told that what's labeled as a "GUNBUSTER" sign on a building serves as "effictive notice" and you could not carry and you could get served "tresspass" if detected

My mom was mentioning about the nursing home my grandmother is at had sign like that and asked me not to carry when I go visit next

so is that correct? or does a proper 30.06 sign have to be in place?

Thanks
Congrats on your new plastic. Carry well.
Section 30.06 is very specific about what is considered notice.
30.06(b) For purposes of this section, a person receives notice if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written communication.
...
30.06(c)(3)"Written communication" means:
(A) a card or other document on which is written language identical to the following: "Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (concealed handgun law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun"; or
(B) a sign posted on the property that:
(i) includes the language described by Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;
(ii) appears in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height; and
(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.
Clearly, a gunbuster sign does not meet the requirements for notice.
As for the nursing home, they must provide notice meeting the requirements of 30.06
46.035(b)(4)on the premises of a hospital licensed under Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code, or on the premises of a nursing home licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety Code, unless the license holder has written authorization of the hospital or nursing home administration, as appropriate;
...
(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.
http://www.PersonalPerimeter.com
DFW area LTC Instructor
NRA Pistol Instructor, Range Safety Officer, Recruiter


chlag01
Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 102
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2011 11:41 am
Location: Austin Area

Re: Signs for the CHLer

#108

Post by chlag01 » Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:26 am

sublevel wrote: I was told that what's labeled as a "GUNBUSTER" sign on a building serves as "effictive notice" and you could not carry and you could get served "tresspass" if detected
Just curious, but who told you that? I hope it wasn't a CHL instructor.
CHL since 08/31/2011
XDm Compact 3.8" 9mm in Comp-Tac MTAC holster
TSRA Member


johnson0317
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 5
Posts: 1047
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:25 pm

Re: Signs for the CHLer

#109

Post by johnson0317 » Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:09 pm

It may be an "effictive" notice, but certainly not an effective one. The gun-buster sign simply means that CHL holders should walk on by, and criminals...well, walk on by.

RJ
CHL Received 5/16/11
Proud Member NRA
Proud Member Texas Concealed Handgun Association
Proud Member Second Amendment Foundation
Proud Member of The Truth Squad founded by Tom Gresham. "A lie left unchallenged becomes the truth"


sublevel
Member
Posts in topic: 3
Posts: 48
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:36 am
Location: Mineral Wells, TX
Contact:

Re: Signs for the CHLer

#110

Post by sublevel » Fri Sep 02, 2011 4:19 am

It was in class we were told that it served as notice... because thats where it became confusing about that sign being posted on the nursing home when I posed that question along with another (hospitals, church, etc section)

honestly Im left with lots of unanswered questions from class... I know this is a good place to ask, but who would have the ultimate answers? TDPS? the "laywers" at [Pre-paid legal service]? (hope to get something informative from there service)

I want to make sure I am educated correctly and don't cross the wrong line, Ive been reading alot but Im sure "Ill have a newb with questions" post VERY SOON

thanks again


johnson0317
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 5
Posts: 1047
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:25 pm

Re: Signs for the CHLer

#111

Post by johnson0317 » Fri Sep 02, 2011 10:03 pm

Well, I could be wrong. As far as I know, however, the only places that you can not carry are those specified by law (polling places, courthouses, race tracks, etc), and those posted with a valid 30.06 sign. I believe one other appropriate notification is a verbal one, and staying past that point is trespassing. Otherwise, the State of Texas wasted a lot of time specifying the exact wording for a sign that means almost nothing if people can post any sort of signage they want to.

RJ
CHL Received 5/16/11
Proud Member NRA
Proud Member Texas Concealed Handgun Association
Proud Member Second Amendment Foundation
Proud Member of The Truth Squad founded by Tom Gresham. "A lie left unchallenged becomes the truth"

User avatar

AdioSS
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 3
Posts: 454
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:02 am
Location: 75707

Re: Signs for the CHLer

#112

Post by AdioSS » Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:49 pm

I saw this at a local biker hangout.
Image

Any chance this is just a typo where they meant 30.06?

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/d ... /PE.30.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Sec. 30.05. CRIMINAL TRESPASS.
(a) A person commits an offense if the person enters or remains on or in property of another, including residential land, agricultural land, a recreational vehicle park, a building, or an aircraft or other vehicle, without effective consent and the person:

(1) had notice that the entry was forbidden; or

(2) received notice to depart but failed to do so.

(b) For purposes of this section:

(1) "Entry" means the intrusion of the entire body.

(2) "Notice" means:

(A) oral or written communication by the owner or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner;

(B) fencing or other enclosure obviously designed to exclude intruders or to contain livestock;

(C) a sign or signs posted on the property or at the entrance to the building, reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders, indicating that entry is forbidden;

(D) the placement of identifying purple paint marks on trees or posts on the property, provided that the marks are:

(i) vertical lines of not less than eight inches in length and not less than one inch in width;

(ii) placed so that the bottom of the mark is not less than three feet from the ground or more than five feet from the ground; and

(iii) placed at locations that are readily visible to any person approaching the property and no more than:

(a) 100 feet apart on forest land; or

(b) 1,000 feet apart on land other than forest land; or

(E) the visible presence on the property of a crop grown for human consumption that is under cultivation, in the process of being harvested, or marketable if harvested at the time of entry.

(3) "Shelter center" has the meaning assigned by Section 51.002, Human Resources Code.

(4) "Forest land" means land on which the trees are potentially valuable for timber products.

(5) "Agricultural land" has the meaning assigned by Section 75.001, Civil Practice and Remedies Code.

(6) "Superfund site" means a facility that:

(A) is on the National Priorities List established under Section 105 of the federal Comprehensive Environmental Response, Compensation, and Liability Act of 1980 (42 U.S.C. Section 9605); or

(B) is listed on the state registry established under Section 361.181, Health and Safety Code.

(7) "Critical infrastructure facility" means one of the following, if completely enclosed by a fence or other physical barrier that is obviously designed to exclude intruders:

(A) a chemical manufacturing facility;

(B) a refinery;

(C) an electrical power generating facility, substation, switching station, electrical control center, or electrical transmission or distribution facility;

(D) a water intake structure, water treatment facility, wastewater treatment plant, or pump station;

(E) a natural gas transmission compressor station;

(F) a liquid natural gas terminal or storage facility;

(G) a telecommunications central switching office;

(H) a port, railroad switching yard, trucking terminal, or other freight transportation facility;

(I) a gas processing plant, including a plant used in the processing, treatment, or fractionation of natural gas; or

(J) a transmission facility used by a federally licensed radio or television station.

(8) "Protected freshwater area" has the meaning assigned by Section 90.001, Parks and Wildlife Code.

(9) "Recognized state" means another state with which the attorney general of this state, with the approval of the governor of this state, negotiated an agreement after determining that the other state:

(A) has firearm proficiency requirements for peace officers; and

(B) fully recognizes the right of peace officers commissioned in this state to carry weapons in the other state.

(10) "Recreational vehicle park" means a tract of land that has rental spaces for two or more recreational vehicles, as defined by Section 522.004, Transportation Code.

(11) "Residential land" means real property improved by a dwelling and zoned for or otherwise authorized for single-family or multifamily use.

(c) Repealed by Acts 2009, 81st Leg., R.S., Ch. 1138, Sec. 4, eff. September 1, 2009.

(d) An offense under this section is:

(1) a Class B misdemeanor, except as provided by Subdivisions (2) and (3);

(2) a Class C misdemeanor, except as provided by Subdivision (3), if the offense is committed:

(A) on agricultural land and within 100 feet of the boundary of the land; or

(B) on residential land and within 100 feet of a protected freshwater area; and

(3) a Class A misdemeanor if:

(A) the offense is committed:

(i) in a habitation or a shelter center;

(ii) on a Superfund site; or

(iii) on or in a critical infrastructure facility; or

(B) the person carries a deadly weapon during the commission of the offense.

(e) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that the actor at the time of the offense was:

(1) a firefighter or emergency medical services personnel, as defined by Section 773.003, Health and Safety Code, acting in the lawful discharge of an official duty under exigent circumstances;

(2) a person who was:

(A) an employee or agent of:

(i) an electric utility, as defined by Section 31.002, Utilities Code;

(ii) a telecommunications provider, as defined by Section 51.002, Utilities Code;

(iii) a video service provider or cable service provider, as defined by Section 66.002, Utilities Code;

(iv) a gas utility, as defined by Section 101.003 or 121.001, Utilities Code; or

(v) a pipeline used for the transportation or sale of oil, gas, or related products; and

(B) performing a duty within the scope of that employment or agency; or

(3) a person who was:

(A) employed by or acting as agent for an entity that had, or that the person reasonably believed had, effective consent or authorization provided by law to enter the property; and

(B) performing a duty within the scope of that employment or agency.

(f) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:

(1) the basis on which entry on the property or land or in the building was forbidden is that entry with a handgun was forbidden; and

(2) the person was carrying a concealed handgun and a license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a concealed handgun of the same category the person was carrying.

(g) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that the actor entered a railroad switching yard or any part of a railroad switching yard and was at that time an employee or a representative of employees exercising a right under the Railway Labor Act (45 U.S.C. Section 151 et seq.).

(h) At the punishment stage of a trial in which the attorney representing the state seeks the increase in punishment provided by Subsection (d)(1)(C), the defendant may raise the issue as to whether the defendant entered or remained on or in a critical infrastructure facility as part of a peaceful or lawful assembly, including an attempt to exercise rights guaranteed by state or federal labor laws. If the defendant proves the issue in the affirmative by a preponderance of the evidence, the increase in punishment provided by Subsection (d)(1)(C) does not apply.

(i) This section does not apply if:

(1) the basis on which entry on the property or land or in the building was forbidden is that entry with a handgun or other weapon was forbidden; and

(2) the actor at the time of the offense was a peace officer, including a commissioned peace officer of a recognized state, or a special investigator under Article 2.122, Code of Criminal Procedure, regardless of whether the peace officer or special investigator was engaged in the actual discharge of an official duty while carrying the weapon.

(j) Repealed by Acts 2009, 81st Leg., R.S., Ch. 1138, Sec. 4, eff. September 1, 2009.

Sec. 30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED HANDGUN.
(a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:

(1) carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, on property of another without effective consent; and

(2) received notice that:

(A) entry on the property by a license holder with a concealed handgun was forbidden; or

(B) remaining on the property with a concealed handgun was forbidden and failed to depart.

(b) For purposes of this section, a person receives notice if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written communication.

(c) In this section:

(1) "Entry" has the meaning assigned by Section 30.05(b).

(2) "License holder" has the meaning assigned by Section 46.035(f).

(3) "Written communication" means:

(A) a card or other document on which is written language identical to the following: "Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (concealed handgun law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun"; or

(B) a sign posted on the property that:

(i) includes the language described by Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;

(ii) appears in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height; and

(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.

(d) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.

(e) It is an exception to the application of this section that the property on which the license holder carries a handgun is owned or leased by a governmental entity and is not a premises or other place on which the license holder is prohibited from carrying the handgun under Section 46.03 or 46.035.


RPB
Banned
Posts in topic: 12
Posts: 8697
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: Signs for the CHLer

#113

Post by RPB » Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:39 am

AdioSS
I'm sure they meant 30.05, because if they meant 30.06, they'd have posted a 30.06 sign with proper language.
And as you see 30.05 has a defense to prosecution for licensees.
(f) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:

(1) the basis on which entry on the property or land or in the building was forbidden is that entry with a handgun was forbidden; and

(2) the person was carrying a concealed handgun and a license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a concealed handgun of the same category the person was carrying.
Looks like an old sign which has the effect of a gunbuster sign, but stronger notice to unlicensed persons of the trespassing Statute applicable to them than a simple gunbuster sign.

If they meant 30.06 on that sign instead of 30.05, theyd have used the proper sign.
(3) "Written communication" means:

(A) a card or other document on which is written language identical to the following: "Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (concealed handgun law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun"; or

(B) a sign posted on the property that:

(i) includes the language described by Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;

(ii) appears in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height; and

(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.
The thing is, is that sign may be so old it might pre-date the 30.06 law. So intent can't be guessed, but proper "notice" wasn't given to a licensee to make it enforceable. Could be a beat the rap, but take a ride to jail thing, depending on officer's knowledge. And in some places a hire a lawyer thing, depending on D.A./Prosecutor's knowledge.


"biker hangout." .... alcohol? 51%?

IANL
I'm no lawyer

"Never show your hole card" "Always have something in reserve"


apostate
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 4
Posts: 2336
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2007 10:01 am

Re: Signs for the CHLer

#114

Post by apostate » Wed Sep 07, 2011 8:33 am

Looking at the text and the condition of the sign, I believe the most likely explanation is they did mean 30.05 because the sign is older than the 30.06 law. However, regardless of their intent, the sign does not meet the current requirements for 30.06 notice, and concealed handgun licensees have a defense to prosecution in 30.05, as shown in the quoted statutes.

User avatar

C-dub
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 13
Posts: 12778
Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 7:18 pm
Location: DFW

Re: Signs for the CHLer

#115

Post by C-dub » Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:12 pm

sublevel wrote:It was in class we were told that it served as notice... because thats where it became confusing about that sign being posted on the nursing home when I posed that question along with another (hospitals, church, etc section)

honestly Im left with lots of unanswered questions from class... I know this is a good place to ask, but who would have the ultimate answers? TDPS? the "laywers" at [Pre-paid legal service]? (hope to get something informative from there service)

I want to make sure I am educated correctly and don't cross the wrong line, Ive been reading alot but Im sure "Ill have a newb with questions" post VERY SOON

thanks again
I am sorry for the poor instruction it appears you received. A gun buster sign is absolutely NOT effective notice to someone with a CHL. Hospitals and churches must also post 30.06 signs in English and Spanish according to the 30.06 statute.

You can and will find many answers here. Some are definitive and some are less than definitive because the law is unclear and there is no case law to help us out in many circumstances. This forum exists because of the kindness and forethought of Charles Cotton. He is a lawyer and has fought hard for our gun rights for many years. He's the only lawyer I can think of at the moment on this forum, but there are also many police officers, also known as LE or LEO for Law Enforcement or Law Enforcement Officer. They are able to give us their insight into what happens in the real world in many situations.
I am not and have never been a LEO. My avatar is in honor of my friend, Dallas Police Sargent Michael Smith, who was murdered along with four other officers in Dallas on 7.7.2016.
NRA Patriot-Endowment Lifetime Member---------------------------------------------Si vis pacem, para bellum.................................................Patriot Guard Rider

User avatar

AdioSS
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 3
Posts: 454
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:02 am
Location: 75707

Re: Signs for the CHLer

#116

Post by AdioSS » Thu Sep 08, 2011 5:55 pm

RPB wrote:"biker hangout." .... alcohol? 51%?
I looked around the place & didn't see a red 51 sign anywhere. I even got on my phone & went to the TABC website, but couldn't find it then, so I didn't carry inside. I did have OC spray on me though.

Now that I'm on my laptop, I actually found the place on the TABC site & it is listed as a Blue Gun Sign. They are one of the places that serves beer & wine, but allows customers to bring in liquor.

It was my first time in there & only went because a friend invited me. I've driven past it dozens of times & seen the parking lot packed, but since it was the Tuesday after Labor Day, it wasn't very busy.


sublevel
Member
Posts in topic: 3
Posts: 48
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:36 am
Location: Mineral Wells, TX
Contact:

Re: Signs for the CHLer

#117

Post by sublevel » Sat Sep 10, 2011 5:28 am

thanks c-dub

yeah I really wish there was more do's and don't about carrying in class and I know we didn't get to keep our booklets :(

flat out, is it illegal to carry at a city park?


RPB
Banned
Posts in topic: 12
Posts: 8697
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: Signs for the CHLer

#118

Post by RPB » Sat Sep 10, 2011 8:31 am

sublevel wrote:thanks c-dub

yeah I really wish there was more do's and don't about carrying in class and I know we didn't get to keep our booklets :(

flat out, is it illegal to carry at a city park?
Generally-> "City Parks" -> Not "illegal" unless the park land is owned by and leased from the US Army Corps of Engineers, because a city is preempted/can't pass laws restricting firearms carried by licensees of the type for which a license was issued by the State.
City/County parks on land owned by the USACE may be in Georgetown, and Harris County, but that situation is rare, most city parks are city owned and perfectly legal for a CHL to carry there.

Even if an outdated "city ordinance" is on the books .... see "form letter" for State law citations/ links ) viewtopic.php?f=7&t=48049&p=588091&hili ... er#p588096" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That letter works sometimes
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=188&p=581186&hilit= ... er#p581186" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=42833&p=516728&hil ... ry#p516724" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Got word today that at the recommedation of the assistant City Manager and the Chief of Police the City Counsel "voted" to remove 30.06 signs at city hall and allow CHL's to attend City Counsel meetings. The assistant City Manager told the counsel that if a shooter started shooting counsel members during a meeting that he would want all the CHL guns he could get into the chambers. The Police Chief agreed. :fire Apparently so did the counsel members.
I am no lawyer, but I bought lunch for some. That's my layman's opinion.
I'm no lawyer

"Never show your hole card" "Always have something in reserve"


Big_Red_Tex
Junior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2011 12:48 am

Re: Signs for the CHLer

#119

Post by Big_Red_Tex » Sat Oct 22, 2011 4:43 am

I always say this about CHL. The bad guy isn't going to sit on his butt for 10 hours waiting in a class then another 2-3 months to get a piece of plastic to carry, and THEN rob the 7-eleven. No he's going to do it as soon as he has the opportunity and has a weapon to do so.
So I always ask whats the point of not having guns in a place if a person who's willing to commit a crime with said weapon ignores the signs blindly and carry's out whatever he/she has their mind set to? If you're going to allow someone to carry it legally why negate their ability in certain places? What makes a courthouse different from a Mall or Library? They are all public places and Makes no logical sense to me.
As for the signs. It's completely up to the restaurant/bar/establishment to keep up with their licences and tags just like you do. And if they don't you are not liable for any actions threatened towards you. But, remember this if you're concealed no one will know no matter what and the law doesn't effect you. Like the old saying is "It's not illegal if you don't get caught."


JKTex
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 21
Posts: 368
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:28 am
Location: Flower Mound

Re: Signs for the CHLer

#120

Post by JKTex » Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:13 pm

Big_Red_Tex wrote:I always say this about CHL. The bad guy isn't going to sit on his butt for 10 hours waiting in a class then another 2-3 months to get a piece of plastic to carry, and THEN rob the 7-eleven. No he's going to do it as soon as he has the opportunity and has a weapon to do so.
So I always ask whats the point of not having guns in a place if a person who's willing to commit a crime with said weapon ignores the signs blindly and carry's out whatever he/she has their mind set to? If you're going to allow someone to carry it legally why negate their ability in certain places? What makes a courthouse different from a Mall or Library? They are all public places and Makes no logical sense to me.


As for the signs. It's completely up to the restaurant/bar/establishment to keep up with their licences and tags just like you do. And if they don't you are not liable for any actions threatened towards you. But, remember this if you're concealed no one will know no matter what and the law doesn't effect you. Like the old saying is "It's not illegal if you don't get caught."
I don't think anyone will disagree with the first part. That's a continuing issue and maybe I'm sure will be addressed, at least in pieces as time goes by.

That last part however..... :eek6 The responsibilities that an establishment has as required by TABC does not negate your responsibility under law. Fortunately after last session, we now have a defense to prosecution when an establishment does not properly post the required TABC signs (not that a defense to prosecution makes me feel any warm and fuzzier) but we still have a responsibility. It's easy to confirm if there's question, by looking at their license.

The main reason I quoted you was that last sentence. That is absolutely NOT what supporters of civilian carry of any kind, needs to have on their side. If you truly feel that way, you're a huge part of the problem. It's not only counter productive to advancing the scope CHL and gun rights in general, it's taking steps backwards and giving anti-gun and anti-carry folks more support.

Integrity = Doing the right thing, because it's the right thing to do. Period.

Illegal is illegal. Crime is crime. Right is right. Wrong is wrong.....and that line of thinking is wrong.

Post Reply

Return to “New to CHL?”