Good Samaritan killed by Police

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howdy
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Good Samaritan killed by Police

#1

Post by howdy »

This is a case of mistaken identity by the Police. Active shooter situation, good guy takes down bad guy, Police shoot good guy with gun.


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/a- ... 8242083417
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Re: Good Samaritan killed by Police

#2

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howdy wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:57 am This is a case of mistaken identity by the Police. Active shooter situation, good guy takes down bad guy, Police shoot good guy with gun.


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/a- ... 8242083417
I am an active volunteer with our local department i and also as in Citizens Patrol organized by them. I fully support all police, but I am dumbfounded how shooting someone in the back would be justified. I am appalled that officers at the scene didn't take action to stop the mad man shooter. But in every occupation the Bell Curve applies.
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Re: Good Samaritan killed by Police

#3

Post by Paladin »

When dealing with active shooter situations, having a firearm in hand when police arrive is dangerous. It is the reason Paul Howe does not recommend using a long gun to stop an active shooter, as you can not conceal the long gun.

In an active shooter situation, my primary concerns are getting my family out and stopping the shooter.... and long guns are way better for that. So I don't think using a long gun is wrong, but picking up the shooters rifle afterwards was a big mistake.

Better to kick it away.

Shooting the Good Samaritan was also a big mistake, and I think there will be a payout... but that won't undo what happened.
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Re: Good Samaritan killed by Police

#4

Post by flowrie »

Kick the rifle away and holster your firearm.
I can't really blame the police for this one.
Everything happens so fast and information is usually slow and inaccurate.
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Re: Good Samaritan killed by Police

#5

Post by OneGun »

flowrie wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:19 pm Kick the rifle away and holster your firearm.
I can't really blame the police for this one.
Everything happens so fast and information is usually slow and inaccurate.
My issue with this shooting is that the officer shot the Good Sam without giving a warning. The Good Sam was in the middle of unloading the rifle when he was shot. He was not pointing a gun in the direction of people, he was not making any threats. The officer should not have merely executed the good sam without at least engaging him with commands to drop the weapon. The shoot first, ask questions later approach is not a best practice.
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Re: Good Samaritan killed by Police

#6

Post by The Annoyed Man »

puma guy wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:01 am
howdy wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:57 am This is a case of mistaken identity by the Police. Active shooter situation, good guy takes down bad guy, Police shoot good guy with gun.


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/a- ... 8242083417
I am an active volunteer with our local department i and also as in Citizens Patrol organized by them. I fully support all police, but I am dumbfounded how shooting someone in the back would be justified. I am appalled that officers at the scene didn't take action to stop the mad man shooter. But in every occupation the Bell Curve applies.
Not saying you’re wrong, but both John Correia and Mike Welliver have repeatedly said that—especially with LEO-involved shootings—it’s not where you shoot someone that matters, but why you shoot them. For example, in a self-defense shooting, you might have reasonably made the decision to shoot when the perp was a threat facing you, but in the half-second or so between when you make the decision to pull the trigger and your finger actually executes the command, the perp may have partially turned away from you…so your shot hits him in the back.

It’s a terrible shame in this case that the good guy was killed, and maybe it is a wrongful death (I don’t claim to know), but maybe there’s a lesson in it for the rest of us. If we shoot an armed bad guy in a public place, unless there’s some compelling reason to be the one who must secure the bad guy's gun, maybe we should just leave it alone, holster our own weapon, and more or less secure the scene until help arrives. After all, you still have your gun, and you can use it again if lawfully called for. And that way, nobody can claim that you tampered with a crime scene.

Just a thought.
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Re: Good Samaritan killed by Police

#7

Post by LDB415 »

It's a terrible situation and never should have happened. I've wondered about getting one of the jackets with the hidden flap that velcro's open and the flap saying police drops out. Probably cause a bit of trouble after but this is exactly the reason why.
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howdy
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Re: Good Samaritan killed by Police

#8

Post by howdy »

The Annoyed Man wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 11:30 am
puma guy wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:01 am
howdy wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:57 am This is a case of mistaken identity by the Police. Active shooter situation, good guy takes down bad guy, Police shoot good guy with gun.


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/a- ... 8242083417
I am an active volunteer with our local department i and also as in Citizens Patrol organized by them. I fully support all police, but I am dumbfounded how shooting someone in the back would be justified. I am appalled that officers at the scene didn't take action to stop the mad man shooter. But in every occupation the Bell Curve applies.
Not saying you’re wrong, but both John Correia and Mike Welliver have repeatedly said that—especially with LEO-involved shootings—it’s not where you shoot someone that matters, but why you shoot them. For example, in a self-defense shooting, you might have reasonably made the decision to shoot when the perp was a threat facing you, but in the half-second or so between when you make the decision to pull the trigger and your finger actually executes the command, the perp may have partially turned away from you…so your shot hits him in the back.

It’s a terrible shame in this case that the good guy was killed, and maybe it is a wrongful death (I don’t claim to know), but maybe there’s a lesson in it for the rest of us. If we shoot an armed bad guy in a public place, unless there’s some compelling reason to be the one who must secure the bad guy's gun, maybe we should just leave it alone, holster our own weapon, and more or less secure the scene until help arrives. After all, you still have your gun, and you can use it again if lawfully called for. And that way, nobody can claim that you tampered with a crime scene.

Just a thought.


This is why I posted the article. I knew it would cause discussion that we all need to read (and learn) what CAN happen after a good guy, bad guy shoot. All the Police know is there is a shooting and they see someone with a gun. Very dangerous for all involved.
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Re: Good Samaritan killed by Police

#9

Post by flowrie »

OneGun wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:20 am
flowrie wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:19 pm Kick the rifle away and holster your firearm.
I can't really blame the police for this one.
Everything happens so fast and information is usually slow and inaccurate.
My issue with this shooting is that the officer shot the Good Sam without giving a warning. The Good Sam was in the middle of unloading the rifle when he was shot. He was not pointing a gun in the direction of people, he was not making any threats. The officer should not have merely executed the good sam without at least engaging him with commands to drop the weapon. The shoot first, ask questions later approach is not a best practice.
If you are out late at night and/or in a bad section of town, odds are greater that something bad will happen.
Similarly, when you pick up a weapon immediately after a shooting and the police arrive, odds are something bad will happen. The good guy unfortunately lost his situational awareness and drastically increased his odds of something bad happening, and it did happen.
Also, how does the LEO know that the good guy is unloading? Could have been reloading or clearing a malfunction.
How does the LEO know the description of the bad guy is accurate? Witness to 911 to the LEO. Is the LEO expected to risk his life based on a description from an unknown witness? It’s an unfortunate incident but I’m siding with the LEO on this one.
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Re: Good Samaritan killed by Police

#10

Post by OneGun »

flowrie wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:29 am
OneGun wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:20 am
flowrie wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:19 pm Kick the rifle away and holster your firearm.
I can't really blame the police for this one.
Everything happens so fast and information is usually slow and inaccurate.
My issue with this shooting is that the officer shot the Good Sam without giving a warning. The Good Sam was in the middle of unloading the rifle when he was shot. He was not pointing a gun in the direction of people, he was not making any threats. The officer should not have merely executed the good sam without at least engaging him with commands to drop the weapon. The shoot first, ask questions later approach is not a best practice.
If you are out late at night and/or in a bad section of town, odds are greater that something bad will happen.
Similarly, when you pick up a weapon immediately after a shooting and the police arrive, odds are something bad will happen. The good guy unfortunately lost his situational awareness and drastically increased his odds of something bad happening, and it did happen.
Also, how does the LEO know that the good guy is unloading? Could have been reloading or clearing a malfunction.
How does the LEO know the description of the bad guy is accurate? Witness to 911 to the LEO. Is the LEO expected to risk his life based on a description from an unknown witness? It’s an unfortunate incident but I’m siding with the LEO on this one.
So the Freeze, Drop the Gun days are a thing of the past....
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Re: Good Samaritan killed by Police

#11

Post by puma guy »

The Annoyed Man wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 11:30 am
puma guy wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:01 am
howdy wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:57 am This is a case of mistaken identity by the Police. Active shooter situation, good guy takes down bad guy, Police shoot good guy with gun.


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/a- ... 8242083417
I am an active volunteer with our local department i and also as in Citizens Patrol organized by them. I fully support all police, but I am dumbfounded how shooting someone in the back would be justified. I am appalled that officers at the scene didn't take action to stop the mad man shooter. But in every occupation the Bell Curve applies.
Not saying you’re wrong, but both John Correia and Mike Welliver have repeatedly said that—especially with LEO-involved shootings—it’s not where you shoot someone that matters, but why you shoot them. For example, in a self-defense shooting, you might have reasonably made the decision to shoot when the perp was a threat facing you, but in the half-second or so between when you make the decision to pull the trigger and your finger actually executes the command, the perp may have partially turned away from you…so your shot hits him in the back.

It’s a terrible shame in this case that the good guy was killed, and maybe it is a wrongful death (I don’t claim to know), but maybe there’s a lesson in it for the rest of us. If we shoot an armed bad guy in a public place, unless there’s some compelling reason to be the one who must secure the bad guy's gun, maybe we should just leave it alone, holster our own weapon, and more or less secure the scene until help arrives. After all, you still have your gun, and you can use it again if lawfully called for. And that way, nobody can claim that you tampered with a crime scene.

Just a thought.
TAM, There's so much information missing in the article my post could be considered speculative as to my opinion. Basing it on what was stated 'approached from the rear and shot him'. It was not prudent to pick up the rifle I agree. But did the officer who killed the wrong man ignore the description of a heavy set man in black, did he say anything to the man he shot, was the original perpetrator close by and in view? We don't know. It's a tragedy no matter. I hope more information will be forth coming, but we may have to await the civil trial to find out what all occurred. I am still appalled that three officers took no action.
I know from personal experience that dispatchers either don't always give out complete information or officers don't listen well. My wife and I were car jacked at gun point by two males and when an officer came to take our statement he was completely unaware our vehicle was stolen. I gave the dispatcher a perfect description of our car including tag number. While he was asking questions a report came over the radio about a robbery at a gas station a mile away from our location with the perps driving a vehicle that perfectly matched ours. I said "That's our van"; the officer looked shocked and said "You mean they stole your car?"
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Re: Good Samaritan killed by Police

#12

Post by Paladin »

OneGun wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:48 am
flowrie wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:29 am
OneGun wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:20 am
flowrie wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:19 pm Kick the rifle away and holster your firearm.
I can't really blame the police for this one.
Everything happens so fast and information is usually slow and inaccurate.
My issue with this shooting is that the officer shot the Good Sam without giving a warning. The Good Sam was in the middle of unloading the rifle when he was shot. He was not pointing a gun in the direction of people, he was not making any threats. The officer should not have merely executed the good sam without at least engaging him with commands to drop the weapon. The shoot first, ask questions later approach is not a best practice.
If you are out late at night and/or in a bad section of town, odds are greater that something bad will happen.
Similarly, when you pick up a weapon immediately after a shooting and the police arrive, odds are something bad will happen. The good guy unfortunately lost his situational awareness and drastically increased his odds of something bad happening, and it did happen.
Also, how does the LEO know that the good guy is unloading? Could have been reloading or clearing a malfunction.
How does the LEO know the description of the bad guy is accurate? Witness to 911 to the LEO. Is the LEO expected to risk his life based on a description from an unknown witness? It’s an unfortunate incident but I’m siding with the LEO on this one.
So the Freeze, Drop the Gun days are a thing of the past....
I don't know if it was ever truly a thing. Years ago in Houston there was an incident where one LEO shot another LEO responding to a crime with pistol in hand. It was dark and the LEO who was shot only had a POLICE t-shirt, not a uniform. There was another time a uniformed officer shot an undercover officer who was holding only a radio... the undercover officer survived and to explain there was never a "drop the radio" command...

In this particular incident, with an active shooter, the LEO was looking for an active shooter with a rifle in hand... shots had already been fired... so it was a big mistake... but to be fair in an active shooter situation the "drop the gun" command would put the LEO at risk.

Too many LEO's don't seem to understand that using cover when confronting an unknown contact is the best way to go. That way you can talk first instead of shoot first.
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