Cities improperly posting 30.06 signs?

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Scott Farkus
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Re: Cities improperly posting 30.06 signs?

#586

Post by Scott Farkus » Fri Jul 06, 2012 9:26 pm

I sure hope this is on the agenda this session. It burns my hide every time I walk past Austin City Hall and see the 30.06 and the metal detectors at both entrances. They should not be allowed to do this.

I hope whatever is done clarifies that the "government meeting" posting can only apply to the actual room where the meeting is being held, while it is being held, and not the entire building always and forever just because the City Council happens to meet there a couple of times a week.

As for the gun show deal, I'm pretty much on the fence philosophically with that one as I see both sides of it. My problem is that the law as I read it currently does not seem to allow posting 30.06 at a government owned facility, which is where a lot if not most of the shows are held. If we want to allow gun shows - or any lessee for that matter - to post, let's change the law to reflect that. If we don't, they can't, period. I hate, hate, hate that so many people are willing to look the other way on the gun show postings because there is a valid reason why they're posted. That's not how it works. Follow the law or change the law, but don't make it up as you go along.

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Re: Cities improperly posting 30.06 signs?

#587

Post by puma guy » Sat Jul 07, 2012 10:26 am

Scott Farkus wrote:I sure hope this is on the agenda this session. It burns my hide every time I walk past Austin City Hall and see the 30.06 and the metal detectors at both entrances. They should not be allowed to do this.

I hope whatever is done clarifies that the "government meeting" posting can only apply to the actual room where the meeting is being held, while it is being held, and not the entire building always and forever just because the City Council happens to meet there a couple of times a week.

As for the gun show deal, I'm pretty much on the fence philosophically with that one as I see both sides of it. My problem is that the law as I read it currently does not seem to allow posting 30.06 at a government owned facility, which is where a lot if not most of the shows are held. If we want to allow gun shows - or any lessee for that matter - to post, let's change the law to reflect that. If we don't, they can't, period. I hate, hate, hate that so many people are willing to look the other way on the gun show postings because there is a valid reason why they're posted. That's not how it works. Follow the law or change the law, but don't make it up as you go along.
I share your frustration with cities ignoring the laws and improperly posting. We give up our rights little by little by little then wonder why government and courts do as they please. My city is not quite as bad as Austin, but are moving in that direction. No metal detectors, though. Me thinks until someone becomes a test case we won't get any changes. I would like to know what you refer to as the "valid reason" for posting gun shows. I am sending letters to my mayor and police chief and school board with the laws to put them on notice, so they can not plead ignorance, not that I'm planning on being the guinea pig. I hope the legilature will address this , but I won't hold my breath.
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Re: Cities improperly posting 30.06 signs?

#588

Post by C-dub » Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:09 pm

Sounds like Charles and friends are up to something. Well, aren't they always? Could we include something to deter companies that do not comply with SB321?
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Re: Cities improperly posting 30.06 signs?

#589

Post by Jasonw560 » Sat Jul 07, 2012 2:11 pm

C-dub wrote:Sounds like Charles and friends are up to something. Well, aren't they always? Could we include something to deter companies that do not comply with SB321?
This is a good question. I'm sure Charles and Co. are wargamong as we speak.
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Re: Cities improperly posting 30.06 signs?

#590

Post by Scott Farkus » Sat Jul 07, 2012 2:58 pm

puma guy wrote:I would like to know what you refer to as the "valid reason" for posting gun shows.
Basically,notwithstanding the first rule of gun safety, the argument is that the guns on the tables at gun shows are presumed to be unloaded (in fact, as I understand it they are required to be so by the promoter). If you allow people to bring in their loaded concealed weapons, there is a chance somebody will pull out his or her loaded weapon to show or compare with one for sale and create a possibility that the loaded weapon will, for whatever reason, get mixed up with the unloaded stock and accidentally "dry" fired.

It's happened at shows in the past; in fact, it happened at the Austin Saxet fairly recently although from what I heard it was because a dealer brought in a loaded gun, not a CHL holder.

I don't know that I totally buy into it, but I see the point. Regardless, the main issue to me isn't whether this is a legitimate concern or not, it's why the show promoters are allowed to post and enforce 30.06 signs at a government owned facility when statute seems to pretty clearly say they can't. You follow the law as it's written, or you change it. You don't take it upon yourself to make up a different set of rules because you think it might be a good idea.


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Re: Cities improperly posting 30.06 signs?

#591

Post by Scott Farkus » Sat Jul 07, 2012 3:17 pm

puma guy wrote:I share your frustration with cities ignoring the laws and improperly posting. We give up our rights little by little by little then wonder why government and courts do as they please. My city is not quite as bad as Austin, but are moving in that direction. No metal detectors, though. Me thinks until someone becomes a test case we won't get any changes.
Honestly, I doubt even losing a test case would do it. Best case scenario, they would keep the sign up and just not enforce it, or not enforce it too rigorously. Even if the City had to pay a monetary penalty (and even that is doubtful under the current law), they wouldn't take down the sign. You might - MIGHT - get action if you held the mayor and city council members personally liable for the fines. Even then, most likely, they would move some obscure court office into a broom closet on the 3rd floor and declare the entire place a "court" (hopefully whatever legislation might be being contemplated takes shenanigans like this into account).

imho, you would literally have to send state troopers into Austin City Hall with torches or screwdrivers to physically remove the sign by force, and you would have to keep those troopers there during working hours to prevent APD from arresting CHL holders who set off the metal detectors. This City is that bad.


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Re: Cities improperly posting 30.06 signs?

#592

Post by NcongruNt » Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:51 pm

Scott Farkus wrote:I sure hope this is on the agenda this session. It burns my hide every time I walk past Austin City Hall and see the 30.06 and the metal detectors at both entrances. They should not be allowed to do this.
Those signs are enforceable only when the council is in session (the meeting of a governmental body clause). AFAIK, that is the only time they actually use the metal detectors. Any other time, the detectors are not in operation, and you can carry past the signs. I did just that last time I was at City Hall for an art exhibit. Yes, the signs were still there (off to the side), but no enforcement was taking place, and the metal detectors were off to the side as well.
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Re: Cities improperly posting 30.06 signs?

#593

Post by Scott Farkus » Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:10 pm

NcongruNt wrote:Those signs are enforceable only when the council is in session (the meeting of a governmental body clause). AFAIK, that is the only time they actually use the metal detectors. Any other time, the detectors are not in operation, and you can carry past the signs. I did just that last time I was at City Hall for an art exhibit. Yes, the signs were still there (off to the side), but no enforcement was taking place, and the metal detectors were off to the side as well.
Interesting. Were you there at night or after 6:00? I work a couple of blocks away and used to have a friend who worked in the building that I'd meet up with a couple of times a month. In all the times I've walk by or walked in, I've never seen the metal detectors not manned whether Council was in session or not.


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Re: Cities improperly posting 30.06 signs?

#594

Post by 2firfun50 » Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:14 pm

Little Elm Tx. Went down to city hall today to vote. The entire building is posted improperly. I tried to get a picture of the sign but couldn't. I'll try again later. The sign wasn't even close.

The building contains the public library and several other offices such as Planning&Zoning etc.

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Re: Cities improperly posting 30.06 signs?

#595

Post by C-dub » Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:06 pm

2firfun50 wrote:Little Elm Tx. Went down to city hall today to vote. The entire building is posted improperly. I tried to get a picture of the sign but couldn't. I'll try again later. The sign wasn't even close.

The building contains the public library and several other offices such as Planning&Zoning etc.
I could be way off here, but I don't think a polling place has to be posted at all. You just gotta know that you can't carry on the premises anytime on the day of polling.
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Re: Cities improperly posting 30.06 signs?

#596

Post by Keith B » Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:29 pm

C-dub wrote:
2firfun50 wrote:Little Elm Tx. Went down to city hall today to vote. The entire building is posted improperly. I tried to get a picture of the sign but couldn't. I'll try again later. The sign wasn't even close.

The building contains the public library and several other offices such as Planning&Zoning etc.
I could be way off here, but I don't think a polling place has to be posted at all. You just gotta know that you can't carry on the premises anytime on the day of polling.
That is correct, so if you vote at the City Hall, it would be off limits when it is a polling place, city owned or not.
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Re: Cities improperly posting 30.06 signs?

#597

Post by sjfcontrol » Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:37 pm

Keith B wrote:
C-dub wrote:
2firfun50 wrote:Little Elm Tx. Went down to city hall today to vote. The entire building is posted improperly. I tried to get a picture of the sign but couldn't. I'll try again later. The sign wasn't even close.

The building contains the public library and several other offices such as Planning&Zoning etc.
I could be way off here, but I don't think a polling place has to be posted at all. You just gotta know that you can't carry on the premises anytime on the day of polling.
That is correct, so if you vote at the City Hall, it would be off limits when it is a polling place, city owned or not.
But still probably only the area used for voting. Not necessarily the entire building. Just as they can't post the entire building for a government meeting.
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Re: Cities improperly posting 30.06 signs?

#598

Post by C-dub » Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:40 pm

sjfcontrol wrote:
Keith B wrote:
C-dub wrote:
2firfun50 wrote:Little Elm Tx. Went down to city hall today to vote. The entire building is posted improperly. I tried to get a picture of the sign but couldn't. I'll try again later. The sign wasn't even close.

The building contains the public library and several other offices such as Planning&Zoning etc.
I could be way off here, but I don't think a polling place has to be posted at all. You just gotta know that you can't carry on the premises anytime on the day of polling.
That is correct, so if you vote at the City Hall, it would be off limits when it is a polling place, city owned or not.
But still probably only the area used for voting. Not necessarily the entire building. Just as they can't post the entire building for a government meeting.
Nope! It's the "premises." I did get it wrong that it was the entire day.
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(1) on the physical premises of a school or educational institution, any grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being conducted, or a passenger transportation vehicle of a school or educational institution, whether the school or educational institution is public or private, unless pursuant to written regulations or written authorization of the institution;
(2) on the premises of a polling place on the day of an election or while early voting is in progress;
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Re: Cities improperly posting 30.06 signs?

#599

Post by sjfcontrol » Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:09 am

C-dub wrote:
sjfcontrol wrote: But still probably only the area used for voting. Not necessarily the entire building. Just as they can't post the entire building for a government meeting.
Nope! It's the "premises." I did get it wrong that it was the entire day.
PC §46.03. PLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly possesses or goes with a firearm, illegal knife, club, or prohibited weapon listed in Section 46.05(a):
(1) on the physical premises of a school or educational institution, any grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being conducted, or a passenger transportation vehicle of a school or educational institution, whether the school or educational institution is public or private, unless pursuant to written regulations or written authorization of the institution;
(2) on the premises of a polling place on the day of an election or while early voting is in progress;
Nope back atcha!
PC46.03(c)(1) "Premises" has the meaning assigned by Section 46.035
PC46.035(f)(3) "Premises" means a building or a portion of a building...
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Re: Cities improperly posting 30.06 signs?

#600

Post by Keith B » Wed Aug 01, 2012 8:22 am

sjfcontrol wrote: PC46.03(c)(1) "Premises" has the meaning assigned by Section 46.035
PC46.035(f)(3) "Premises" means a building or a portion of a building...
The problem with the 'portion of a building' is there has to be clear delineation of the prohibited area, and you have ability to enter into it through a separate entrance, stay clear of that segregated area, etc.
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