Carrying at an INS checkpoint

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jamullinstx
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Carrying at an INS checkpoint

#1

Post by jamullinstx » Wed Mar 18, 2009 10:05 pm

Returning to Austin from south Texas today via US 77 while carrying, I had sudden pangs of doubt when I came upon the INS checkpoint (~100 miles inside the Texas border, AAARG!) regarding the legality of carrying through the checkpoint.
  • 1. Are the INS agents considered law enforcement officers with jurisdiction to enforce Texas CHL provisions?
    2. Corollary to 1, if asked for I.D. at the checkpoint, would I be required to show the CHL along with whatever other I.D. I chose to present, presumably my DL
    3. Finally, is the checkpoint considered federal premises where carrying would be illegal?
Fortunately, I was just asked the inane question, "Are you a U.S. citizen?", and the encounter passed without incident.

Just curious.

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Re: Carrying at an INS checkpoint

#2

Post by boomerang » Wed Mar 18, 2009 10:25 pm

jamullinstx wrote:1. Are the INS agents considered law enforcement officers with jurisdiction to enforce Texas CHL provisions?
Feds are not peace officers in Texas.
http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... =7&t=21906" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
jamullinstx wrote:Fortunately, I was just asked the inane question, "Are you a U.S. citizen?", and the encounter passed without incident.
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Re: Carrying at an INS checkpoint

#3

Post by ninemm » Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:07 pm

jamullinstx wrote: Fortunately, I was just asked the inane question, "Are you a U.S. citizen?", and the encounter passed without incident.
Nowadays, wouldn't those be considered ICE checkpoints?


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Re: Carrying at an INS checkpoint

#4

Post by jamullinstx » Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:12 pm

I should have been clearer on #1. Do INS agents qualify as law enforcement officers entitled to provision of my CHL if asked for ID?

And, yes, I speak Spanish, too. Having encountered these checkpoints before carrying, I was often tempted to speak only Spanish to them, but thought my wife and kids might not enjoy the trip to the detention center.


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Re: Carrying at an INS checkpoint

#5

Post by NcongruNt » Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:40 am

jamullinstx wrote:I should have been clearer on #1. Do INS agents qualify as law enforcement officers entitled to provision of my CHL if asked for ID?
As boomerang stated, feds are not considered peace officers in Texas.
GC 5411.205. DISPLAYING LICENSE; PENALTY. (a) If a license
holder is carrying a handgun on or about the license holder's person
when a magistrate or a peace officer demands that the license holder
display identification, the license holder shall display both the license
holder's driver's license or identification certificate issued by the
department and the license holder's handgun license. A person who
fails or refuses to display the license and identification as required by
this subsection is subject to suspension of the person's license as
provided by Section 411.187.
(b) A person commits an offense if the person fails or refuses to
display the license and identification as required by Subsection (a)
after previously having had the person's license suspended for a viola-
tion of that subsection. An offense under this subsection is a Class B
misdemeanor.
As feds are considered neither magistrates nor peace officers, the answer is no.

(For posterity, I'm looking up all of the relevant definitions in the many codes where a peace officer is defined. I'll have it up shortly.)
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Re: Carrying at an INS checkpoint

#6

Post by NcongruNt » Thu Mar 19, 2009 11:13 am

OK, here we go.

"Peace Officer, as defined by TPC 1.07(a)(36):
(36) "Peace officer" means a person elected, employed,
or appointed as a peace officer under Article 2.12, Code of Criminal
Procedure, Section 51.212 or 51.214, Education Code, or other law.
Sounds simple enough, huh? Now to delve into the Code of Criminal Procedure.

TCCP 2.12:
Art. 2.12. WHO ARE PEACE OFFICERS. The following are peace
officers:
(1) sheriffs, their deputies, and those reserve deputies
who hold a permanent peace officer license issued under Chapter
1701, Occupations Code;
(2) constables, deputy constables, and those reserve deputy
constables who hold a permanent peace officer license issued under
Chapter 1701, Occupations Code;
(3) marshals or police officers of an incorporated city,
town, or village, and those reserve municipal police officers who
hold a permanent peace officer license issued under Chapter 1701,
Occupations Code;
(4) rangers and officers commissioned by the Public Safety
Commission and the Director of the Department of Public Safety;
(5) investigators of the district attorneys', criminal
district attorneys', and county attorneys' offices;
(6) law enforcement agents of the Texas Alcoholic Beverage
Commission;
(7) each member of an arson investigating unit commissioned
by a city, a county, or the state;
(8) officers commissioned under Section 37.081, Education
Code, or Subchapter E, Chapter 51, Education Code;
(9) officers commissioned by the General Services
Commission;
(10) law enforcement officers commissioned by the Parks and
Wildlife Commission;
(11) airport police officers commissioned by a city with a
population of more than 1.18 million that operates an airport that
serves commercial air carriers;
(12) airport security personnel commissioned as peace
officers by the governing body of any political subdivision of this
state, other than a city described by Subdivision (11), that
operates an airport that serves commercial air carriers;
(13) municipal park and recreational patrolmen and security
officers;
(14) security officers and investigators commissioned as
peace officers by the comptroller;
(15) officers commissioned by a water control and
improvement district under Section 49.216, Water Code;
(16) officers commissioned by a board of trustees under
Chapter 54, Transportation Code;
(17) investigators commissioned by the Texas State Board of
Medical Examiners;
(18) officers commissioned by the board of managers of the
Dallas County Hospital District, the Tarrant County Hospital
District, or the Bexar County Hospital District under Section
281.057, Health and Safety Code;
(19) county park rangers commissioned under Subchapter E,
Chapter 351, Local Government Code;
(20) investigators employed by the Texas Racing Commission;
(21) officers commissioned under Chapter 554, Occupations
Code;
(22) officers commissioned by the governing body of a
metropolitan rapid transit authority under Section 451.108,
Transportation Code, or by a regional transportation authority
under Section 452.110, Transportation Code;
(23) investigators commissioned by the attorney general
under Section 402.009, Government Code;
(24) security officers and investigators commissioned as
peace officers under Chapter 466, Government Code;
(25) an officer employed by the Texas Department of Health
under Section 431.2471, Health and Safety Code;
(26) officers appointed by an appellate court under
Subchapter F, Chapter 53, Government Code;
(27) officers commissioned by the state fire marshal under
Chapter 417, Government Code;
(28) an investigator commissioned by the commissioner of
insurance under Article 1.10D, Insurance Code;
(29) apprehension specialists commissioned by the Texas
Youth Commission as officers under Section 61.0931, Human Resources
Code;
(30) officers appointed by the executive director of the
Texas Department of Criminal Justice under Section 493.019,
Government Code;
(31) investigators commissioned by the Commission on Law
Enforcement Officer Standards and Education under Section
1701.160, Occupations Code;
(32) commission investigators commissioned by the Texas
Commission on Private Security under Section 1702.061(f),
Occupations Code;
(33) the fire marshal and any officers, inspectors, or
investigators commissioned by an emergency services district under
Chapter 775, Health and Safety Code; and
(34) officers commissioned by the State Board of Dental
Examiners under Section 254.013, Occupations Code, subject to the
limitations imposed by that section.
Long, but no mention of feds yet. But there's still the Education Code.

TEC 51.212:
Sec. 51.212. PEACE OFFICERS AT PRIVATE INSTITUTIONS. (a) The governing boards of private institutions of higher education, including private junior colleges, are authorized to employ and commission peace officers for the purpose of enforcing:

(1) state law on the campuses of private institutions of higher education; and

(2) state and local law, including applicable municipal ordinances, at other locations, as permitted by Subsection (b) or Section 51.2125.

(b) Any officer commissioned under the provisions of this section is vested with all the powers, privileges, and immunities of peace officers if the officer:

(1) is on the property under the control and jurisdiction of the respective private institution of higher education or is otherwise performing duties assigned to the officer by the institution, regardless of whether the officer is on property under the control and jurisdiction of the institution, but provided these duties are consistent with the educational mission of the institution and are being performed within a county in which the institution has land; or

(2) to the extent authorized by Section 51.2125, is:

(A) requested by another law enforcement agency to provide assistance in enforcing state or local law, including a municipal ordinance, and is acting in response to that request; or

(B) otherwise assisting another law enforcement agency in enforcing a law described by Paragraph (A).

(c) Any officer assigned to duty and commissioned shall take and file the oath required of peace officers, and shall execute and file a good and sufficient bond in the sum of $1,000, payable to the governor, with two or more good and sufficient sureties, conditioned that the officer will fairly, impartially, and faithfully perform the duties as may be required of the officer by law. The bond may be sued on from time to time in the name of the person injured until the whole amount is recovered.

(d) The governing boards of private institutions of higher education are authorized to hire and pay on a regular basis peace officers commissioned by an incorporated city. The officers shall be under the supervision of the hiring institution, but shall be subject to dismissal and disciplinary action by the city. An incorporated city is authorized to contract with a private institution of higher education for the use and employment of its commissioned officers in any manner agreed to, provided that there is no expense incurred by the city.

(e) In this section, "private institution of higher education" means a private or independent institution of higher education as defined by Section 61.003.
And TEC 51.214:
Sec. 51.214. SECURITY OFFICERS FOR MEDICAL CORPORATIONS IN CERTAIN MUNICIPALITIES. (a) In any municipality with a population of 1.18 million or more, the governing board of a private, nonprofit medical corporation that provides security services for an institution of higher education or a private postsecondary educational institution and other entities located within the same medical complex, or that provides security services for a branch of that medical corporation, may employ and commission security personnel to enforce the law of this state within the jurisdiction designated by Subsection (c).

(b) An officer commissioned under this section may make arrests and has all the powers, privileges, and immunities of a peace officer while performing the officer's assigned duties within the jurisdiction designated by Subsection (c). An officer assigned to duty and commissioned shall take and file the oath required of peace officers and shall execute and file a good and sufficient bond in the sum of $1,000, payable to the governor, with two or more good and sufficient sureties, conditioned that the officer will fairly, impartially, and faithfully perform the duties required of the officer by law. The bond may be sued on from time to time in the name of the person injured until the whole amount is recovered.

(c) The jurisdiction of an officer commissioned under this section is limited to:

(1) property owned, leased, managed, or controlled by the medical corporation; and

(2) a street or alley that abuts the property or an easement in or a right-of-way over or through the property.

(d) An officer commissioned by a medical corporation under this section is not entitled to compensation or benefits provided by this state or a political subdivision of this state.

(e) The state or a political subdivision of this state is not liable for an act or omission of an officer commissioned under this section during the performance of the officer's assigned duties.

(f) A medical corporation may not commission a person under this section unless the person obtains a peace officer license issued by the Commission on Law Enforcement Officer Standards and Education. The medical corporation shall pay to the Commission on Law Enforcement Officer Standards and Education on behalf of an employee any fees that are necessary to obtain a required license.

(g) A person's commission and any authority to act as an officer under this section are automatically revoked if the person's employment with a medical corporation is terminated for any reason.
Wee! So, there's no reference to any federal officer. Only state, county, and city-level officers are defined as peace officers as far as Texas is concerned.
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Re: Carrying at an INS checkpoint

#7

Post by will381796 » Thu Mar 19, 2009 12:45 pm

Do feds even have access to the DPS database that would tell them when they run our DL that we are CHL holders?
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Re: Carrying at an INS checkpoint

#8

Post by Crosstimbers Okie » Thu Mar 19, 2009 2:05 pm

A "premesis" refers to a building as far as federal law is concerned.
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Re: Carrying at an INS checkpoint

#9

Post by nitrogen » Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:18 pm

Why the H E Double Hockey Sticks is there INS/ICE checkpoints *INSIDE* of the country??

I would go bananas if I got stopped by ICE inside of the country!
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Re: Carrying at an INS checkpoint

#10

Post by Booster » Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:34 pm

I am no lawyer, but weren't you in Texas? I would think you should be safe. The checkpoint at Mexico would be the one I would worry about.


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Re: Carrying at an INS checkpoint

#11

Post by will381796 » Thu Mar 19, 2009 4:29 pm

Why does everyone qualify their statements with "I am not a lawyer?" Has anyone ever been sued for posting faulty legal information on an internet forum that someone followed because they assumed it's correct? Why don't we just assume from the get-go that none of us are lawyers unless otherwise stated (IAAL)? Just not sure of the need for everyone to provide that disclaimer to every posting...lol
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Re: Carrying at an INS checkpoint

#12

Post by Purplehood » Thu Mar 19, 2009 4:30 pm

will381796 wrote:Why does everyone qualify their statements with "I am not a lawyer?" Has anyone ever been sued for posting faulty legal information on an internet forum that someone followed because they assumed it's correct? Why don't we just assume from the get-go that none of us are lawyers unless otherwise stated (IAAL)? Just not sure of the need for everyone to provide that disclaimer to every posting...lol
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Re: Carrying at an INS checkpoint

#13

Post by DoubleJ » Thu Mar 19, 2009 4:55 pm

will381796 wrote:Why does everyone qualify their statements with "I am not a lawyer?" Has anyone ever been sued for posting faulty legal information on an internet forum that someone followed because they assumed it's correct? Why don't we just assume from the get-go that none of us are lawyers unless otherwise stated (IAAL)? Just not sure of the need for everyone to provide that disclaimer to every posting...lol
it's to differentiate between the guy(s) that ARE lawyers. especially the guy with his name in red lettering. he's been known to dabble in the Law, now and again ( :lol: )
FWIW, IIRC, AFAIK, FTMP, IANAL. YMMV.

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Re: Carrying at an INS checkpoint

#14

Post by Liberty » Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:32 pm

will381796 wrote:Why does everyone qualify their statements with "I am not a lawyer?" Has anyone ever been sued for posting faulty legal information on an internet forum that someone followed because they assumed it's correct? Why don't we just assume from the get-go that none of us are lawyers unless otherwise stated (IAAL)? Just not sure of the need for everyone to provide that disclaimer to every posting...lol
I will warn folks because In have opinions but I want to remind folks that thought process may be flawed.
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Re: Carrying at an INS checkpoint

#15

Post by jamullinstx » Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:43 pm

nitrogen wrote:Why the H E Double Hockey Sticks is there INS/ICE checkpoints *INSIDE* of the country??

I would go bananas if I got stopped by ICE inside of the country!
Have fun with that. Let me know how it works out for you.

There have been checkpoints on 77 and 281 since I can remember. Try running one and I'm sure you will be followed by armed suburbans that are sitting in the wings waiting to follow those that try to run the checkpoint. They have drug-sniffing dogs nonchalantly smelling every vehicle through the checkpoint. I'm sure there are helicopters in the wings waiting to follow from ground instructions, as well.

I prefer to get through the checkpoint with the least hassle and be on my way.

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