Question about Clayton Library in Houston

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TexasAggie2006
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Question about Clayton Library in Houston

#1

Post by TexasAggie2006 » Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:05 pm

I apologize if this has already been posted somewhere, I wasn't able to find it. I went by the Clayton Library here in Houston today (over on Caroline) and noticed that they have metal detectors and a security guard at the door. They don't have a 30.06 sign at the door, I assume because it is a city building. But my question is, do the presence of metal detectors mean I can't carry inside or do I just show my license to the guard when I set the thing off? I don't particularly want to announce that I have a weapon to everyone in the library.

I haven't gotten my plastic yet but I would like to be prepared when I do. I go to this library alone in the evening and stay until closing (9:30) and it was actually one of the reasons I applied for my permit in the first place. It's is in a shady part of town but it is a great resource and I love going.

I was going to call them and just ask but I thought I would make sure I wasnt' missing something that will make me feel stupid when I do. :oops: What do y'all think?
4/18/2009 Completed CHL Class
4/29/2009 Application Mailed
5/1/2009 Packet Confirmed delivered to DPS
5/1/2009 Pin Recieved
6/9/2009 -- Processing Application
XX/XX/2009 -- Application Complete
XX/XX/2009 -- Plastic in hand


dicion
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Re: Question about Clayton Library in Houston

#2

Post by dicion » Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:15 pm

I'm going to play devil's advocate against myself here...

No-
The presence of metal detectors alone does not mean you are not allowed to carry there. However, as soon as you enter, and set it off, they will most likely say verbally 'you cannot carry here' Which, according to 30.06 is 'effective notice'

But... Yes-
However, is the library government owned? 30.06 also states that said notice is invalid if the property is government owned, and there is no other legal reason you would not be allowed to carry.

But.. No-
However, All they would have to say, to give Another reason to prevent you from carrying is 'there is, or may be a school function going on inside the building', which by law prevents you from carrying.


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TexasAggie2006
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Re: Question about Clayton Library in Houston

#3

Post by TexasAggie2006 » Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:19 pm

That makes sense. The school function would have to be going on at the time I was there though, correct? I never get there before 5:30pm so I dont' think that would apply. I think I will give them a call and just see what they say. Can't hurt right?
4/18/2009 Completed CHL Class
4/29/2009 Application Mailed
5/1/2009 Packet Confirmed delivered to DPS
5/1/2009 Pin Recieved
6/9/2009 -- Processing Application
XX/XX/2009 -- Application Complete
XX/XX/2009 -- Plastic in hand


dmac
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Re: Question about Clayton Library in Houston

#4

Post by dmac » Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:30 pm

I find it hard to believe, though not out of the realm of possibilities, that the Clayton library, being a genealogical research library, would ever host a school event.
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dicion
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Re: Question about Clayton Library in Houston

#5

Post by dicion » Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:31 pm

TexasAggie2006 wrote:That makes sense. The school function would have to be going on at the time I was there though, correct? I never get there before 5:30pm so I dont' think that would apply. I think I will give them a call and just see what they say. Can't hurt right?
When you call, find out if they are a government owned or leased building. If they are, the following definately applies:
§ 30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED
HANDGUN.
...
(e) It is an exception to the application of this section
that the property on which the license holder carries a handgun is
owned or leased by a governmental entity and is not a premises or
other place on which the license holder is prohibited from carrying
the handgun under Section 46.03 or 46.035.
Not gonna put 46.03 or 46.035 here, but basically, if it is government owned, and there's no other reason to prevent it (active Polling going on there?, horse racing? pro sports?), they cannot legally prevent you from carrying.

Now, will you take the ride? Most likely. However, if you want to be a nice test case for the 'government property' statute, you're more then welcome to :mrgreen: since I can't recall there being one yet.

Also remember, A security guard, or other employee has no right to search you without your consent. You can straight up refuse to be searched, or to empty your pockets if they ask you to (As intentional display of a Concealed Handgun is a crime, they can get you on this if you display it!!) Only a LEO can do this, and they will probably call one at that point.

If you were going to do this, I'd recommend having a lawyer in-tow with you when you go there :mrgreen:

I think this would be a candidate to get 15 or 20 CHL's to all go there on a field trip some day, with said lawyer in tow :mrgreen:
Last edited by dicion on Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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TexasAggie2006
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Re: Question about Clayton Library in Houston

#6

Post by TexasAggie2006 » Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:41 pm

Ok, so I called them and I think the receptionis fell out of her chair when I asked my question. She put me through to the security guard who told me that "weapons aren't allowed here." So I confirmed again that the building is owned by the city and she said yes. Then I asked if there was a reason they were able to restrict CHLers that I wasn't aware of or if it was just that they don't want weapons on the premises. She said they don't want weapons on the premises and that guns were prohibited on city property, CHL or not. :nono:

She was nice and was just a security officer, not a LEO so I just got the name of someone higher up to speak with and told her appreciated her help.

I dont' think I want to be the guniea pig for that! I don't have my plastic yet so I would get the ride and the rap for carrying period!
4/18/2009 Completed CHL Class
4/29/2009 Application Mailed
5/1/2009 Packet Confirmed delivered to DPS
5/1/2009 Pin Recieved
6/9/2009 -- Processing Application
XX/XX/2009 -- Application Complete
XX/XX/2009 -- Plastic in hand


dicion
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Re: Question about Clayton Library in Houston

#7

Post by dicion » Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:44 pm

TexasAggie2006 wrote: She said they don't want weapons on the premises and that guns were prohibited on city property, CHL or not. :nono:
Shows how much they know about the law.
This would definately be a good location for my aforementioned field trip then. :smilelol5:

Next time you call them, be sure to tell them that the law specifically allows you to carry there, and also specifically prevents them from stopping you. Cite the actual code, and ask them to cite the code where it says it is not allowed. They're a library, should be plenty of people there capable of Researching it :mrgreen:
Last edited by dicion on Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Charles L. Cotton
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Re: Question about Clayton Library in Houston

#8

Post by Charles L. Cotton » Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:46 pm

TexasAggie2006 wrote:Ok, so I called them and I think the receptionis fell out of her chair when I asked my question. She put me through to the security guard who told me that "weapons aren't allowed here." So I confirmed again that the building is owned by the city and she said yes. Then I asked if there was a reason they were able to restrict CHLers that I wasn't aware of or if it was just that they don't want weapons on the premises. She said they don't want weapons on the premises and that guns were prohibited on city property, CHL or not. :nono:

She was nice and was just a security officer, not a LEO so I just got the name of someone higher up to speak with and told her appreciated her help.

I dont' think I want to be the guniea pig for that! I don't have my plastic yet so I would get the ride and the rap for carrying period!
The security guard is wrong and her opinion matters not. It is not illegal to carry in a city-owned library. As for "taking the ride," every LEO knows or should know that he/she cannot make a good faith arrest for something that is not illegal. Doing so subjects the officer and their agency to a Section 1983 civil rights suit.

Chas.
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Re: Question about Clayton Library in Houston

#9

Post by TexasAggie2006 » Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:49 pm

Charles L. Cotton wrote:
TexasAggie2006 wrote:Ok, so I called them and I think the receptionis fell out of her chair when I asked my question. She put me through to the security guard who told me that "weapons aren't allowed here." So I confirmed again that the building is owned by the city and she said yes. Then I asked if there was a reason they were able to restrict CHLers that I wasn't aware of or if it was just that they don't want weapons on the premises. She said they don't want weapons on the premises and that guns were prohibited on city property, CHL or not. :nono:

She was nice and was just a security officer, not a LEO so I just got the name of someone higher up to speak with and told her appreciated her help.

I dont' think I want to be the guniea pig for that! I don't have my plastic yet so I would get the ride and the rap for carrying period!
The security guard is wrong and her opinion matters not. It is not illegal to carry in a city-owned library.

Chas.
How do you suggest I handle the metal detector situation? Like I said, I don't want to draw attention to myself but I love the library and I don't appreciate them not following the law. I would like to handle it in the most civil manner possible.

P.S. I really appreciate everyone's advice on this.
4/18/2009 Completed CHL Class
4/29/2009 Application Mailed
5/1/2009 Packet Confirmed delivered to DPS
5/1/2009 Pin Recieved
6/9/2009 -- Processing Application
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Re: Question about Clayton Library in Houston

#10

Post by Keith B » Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:01 pm

I would talk to the head librarian and ask how you go about this. If they state the same, I would take it up with the Mayor's office and ask why the city is barring a tax payer from legally entering the library?
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dicion
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Re: Question about Clayton Library in Houston

#11

Post by dicion » Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:08 pm

You could also go in the library, not carrying, bringing the law with you, and set up a meeting with the head librarian, and show them the law.

Library people are generally very factually orientated, if you show it to them in black and white, hopefully they'll get it.

If not, then the Mayor's office, as stated above :)

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Re: Question about Clayton Library in Houston

#12

Post by Charles L. Cotton » Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:09 pm

Caveat: There is no case law on this issue.

This issue comes up periodically. As noted, there is no case law on the issue of whether school sponsored activities conducted off-campus render such locations off limits to CHLs. However, it is my opinion that TPC §46.03(a)(1) makes it clear that the "grounds" or "building[s]" where the school sponsored activities are conducted must be owned by the school. There are at least two justifications for this position. First, everything in §46.03(a)(1) deals with school property. This is shown by the phrase "of a school or educational institution" and by reference to "a passenger transportation vehicle of a school or educational institution." If a teacher put her class on a city buss to go to the library, the activity would be school sponsored, but the buss would not be "a passenger transportation vehicle of a school," thus it would not be off limits to CHLs.

More importantly, all of the prohibitions can be waived by a school, as evidenced by the provision "unless pursuant to written regulation or written authorization of the institution." Schools clearly do not have the authority to authorize the carrying of firearms on property they do not own, so they would not be able to authorize anyone to carry a gun into a public library. Nor would a school have the authority to allow someone to carry a gun into a private restaurant, if the school sponsored activity included lunch at such a location. The only way this closing phrase can be meaningful is by reading §46.03(a)(1) to apply only to property owned by the school. The rules of statutory construction require that statutes be read in such as way as to give meaning to every provision, unless this is impossible. Every provision in TPC §46.03(a)(1) can be harmonized, but only by applying it solely to property owned by the school.

Chas.
TPC §46.03 wrote:Sec. 46.03.AAPLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly possesses or goes with a firearm, illegal knife, club, or prohibited weapon listed in Section 46.05(a):

(1) on the physical premises of a school or educational institution, any grounds or building on which an
activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being conducted, or a passenger transportation vehicle of a school or educational institution, whether the school or educational institution is public or private, unless pursuant to written regulations or written authorization of the institution;
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Re: Question about Clayton Library in Houston

#13

Post by TexasAggie2006 » Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:12 pm

I think I will try and speak with the head librarian. Since my status still says "packet mailed to applicant" I guess I have plenty of time to try and get it resolved before the plastic gets here.

Thanks again everyone! :clapping:
4/18/2009 Completed CHL Class
4/29/2009 Application Mailed
5/1/2009 Packet Confirmed delivered to DPS
5/1/2009 Pin Recieved
6/9/2009 -- Processing Application
XX/XX/2009 -- Application Complete
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Re: Question about Clayton Library in Houston

#14

Post by Charles L. Cotton » Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:14 pm

TexasAggie2006 wrote:I think I will try and speak with the head librarian. Since my status still says "packet mailed to applicant" I guess I have plenty of time to try and get it resolved before the plastic gets here.

Thanks again everyone! :clapping:
If you get a response that "no guns" means CHLs also, let me know and I'll tell you how to send an Open Records Request they won't like. :evil2:

Chas.
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Re: Question about Clayton Library in Houston

#15

Post by TexasAggie2006 » Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:18 pm

Charles L. Cotton wrote:
TexasAggie2006 wrote:I think I will try and speak with the head librarian. Since my status still says "packet mailed to applicant" I guess I have plenty of time to try and get it resolved before the plastic gets here.

Thanks again everyone! :clapping:
If you get a response that "no guns" means CHLs also, let me know and I'll tell you how to send an Open Records Request they won't like. :evil2:

Chas.

Will do! Thanks so much! I'll definately post an update once I've spoken with them.
4/18/2009 Completed CHL Class
4/29/2009 Application Mailed
5/1/2009 Packet Confirmed delivered to DPS
5/1/2009 Pin Recieved
6/9/2009 -- Processing Application
XX/XX/2009 -- Application Complete
XX/XX/2009 -- Plastic in hand

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