State Park carry?

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killerfly128
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State Park carry?

#1

Post by killerfly128 » Tue Mar 09, 2010 5:09 pm

Going to be going camping soon at Ray Roberts ... would it be legal to carry there?

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The Annoyed Man
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Re: State Park carry?

#2

Post by The Annoyed Man » Tue Mar 09, 2010 5:42 pm

killerfly128 wrote:Going to be going camping soon at Ray Roberts ... would it be legal to carry there?
Not if it is Corps of Engineers land.
Give me Liberty, or I'll get up and get it myself.—Hookalakah Meshobbab
I don't carry because of the odds, I carry because of the stakes.—The Annoyed Boy

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killerfly128
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Re: State Park carry?

#3

Post by killerfly128 » Tue Mar 09, 2010 5:47 pm

The Annoyed Man wrote:
killerfly128 wrote:Going to be going camping soon at Ray Roberts ... would it be legal to carry there?
Not if it is Corps of Engineers land.
I dunno if it is. It would be the Johnson Branch area of the park.

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Re: State Park carry?

#4

Post by The Annoyed Man » Tue Mar 09, 2010 5:58 pm

killerfly128 wrote:
The Annoyed Man wrote:
killerfly128 wrote:Going to be going camping soon at Ray Roberts ... would it be legal to carry there?
Not if it is Corps of Engineers land.
I dunno if it is. It would be the Johnson Branch area of the park.
Here is their contact information:

100 PW 4153
Valley View, TX 76272-7411
940/637-2294

I'd give them a phone call. I would NOT ask about CHL. I would ask if the Johnson Branch camping area is on Corps of Engineers land. If it is, then it's a "no go." If you mention CHL, you might not get a truthful answer.
Give me Liberty, or I'll get up and get it myself.—Hookalakah Meshobbab
I don't carry because of the odds, I carry because of the stakes.—The Annoyed Boy

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TDDude
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Re: State Park carry?

#5

Post by TDDude » Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:06 pm

How about just bring a rifle & make sure you have a comfortable sling??

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Re: State Park carry?

#6

Post by The Annoyed Man » Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:08 pm

TDDude wrote:How about just bring a rifle & make sure you have a comfortable sling??

:patriot: :txflag: :patriot: :txflag: :patriot: :txflag: :patriot: :txflag:
Because a rifle would not be permitted on Corps land.
Give me Liberty, or I'll get up and get it myself.—Hookalakah Meshobbab
I don't carry because of the odds, I carry because of the stakes.—The Annoyed Boy


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Re: State Park carry?

#7

Post by texas1234 » Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:45 pm

Just call them and ask them if you can carry with a CHL. I always do that with the parks, they are always very nice and answer truthfully. I mean yes there is a chance you will get a hateful insecure granola chomper on the phone who just finished a can campbells veggie soup with low sodium mentally planning their next violent attack on a research facility and dreaming about the day all humans are burned alive at the steak, but most of the time they just state the law and are nice about it.
6th Generation Texan


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Re: State Park carry?

#8

Post by Mike1951 » Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:53 am

You are not restricted from carrying in a state park.
Texas Parks and Wildlife Department
Executive Director Order No. 98-001
Nothing in the Public Hunting Lands Proclamation or State Parks Proclamation prohibits a person from possessing a concealed handgun, loaded or unloaded, under the authority of a concealed handgun license issued by this state or any other state. Persons carrying concealed handguns must comply with all concealed handgun laws.

The Executive Director reserves the right to prohibit the carrying of all firearms during certain events or in certain locations on Departmental lands.

This order is issued pursuant to Title 31, Texas Administrative Code, Sections 59.134(0(1) and 65.199, and is effective immediately.

Signed this the 8th day of July, 1998.

Andrew Sansom
Executive Director
Texas Parks and Wildlife Department
However, since the Corps of Engineers leases Ray Roberts to TPWD, I checked their rules also.

While this section appears to prohibit firearms:
327.13 Explosives, firearms, other weapons and fireworks.
(a) The possession of loaded firearms, ammunition, loaded projectile firing devices, bows and arrows, crossbows, or other weapons is prohibited unless:
(1) In the possession of a Federal, state or local law enforcement officer;
(2) Being used for hunting or fishing as permitted under 327.8, with devices being unloaded when transported to, from or between hunting and fishing sites;
(3) Being used at authorized shooting ranges; or
(4) Written permission has been received from the District Commander.
But if I'm interpreting this next section correctly, firearms are controlled by state law, meaning concealed carry would be legal.
327.26 State and local laws.
(a) Except as otherwise provided in this part or by Federal law or regulation, state and local laws and ordinances shall apply on project lands and waters. This includes, but is not limited to, state and local laws and ordinances governing:
(1) Operation and use of motor vehicles, vessels, and aircraft;
(2) Hunting, fishing and trapping;
(3) Use or possession of firearms or other weapons;
I realize, as many times as the COE issue has been discussed here, that it shouldn't be this simple.
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Re: State Park carry?

#9

Post by RPB » Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:53 am

The Governor, Rick Perry, who replied and forwarded my issues to Carter Smith, the Executive Director of TPWD

I just got a letter fromCarter Smith... dated January 12, 2010. This is the only definitive answer on the State Park/COE issue.

"State park properties leased from the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers are subject to the rules and regulations of the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department. Therefore, a loaded, concealed handgun carried by a valid license holder is allowed within any Texas State Park."

"If you have any further questions about firearms in Texas State Parks, pleae contact Mr. Wes Masur, State Park Law Enforcement Director, at 512-389-8001 or via email at wes.masur@tpwd.state.tx.us "
( Mr. Wes Masur, State Park Law Enforcement Director, 512-389-8001 or E-mail him at wes.masur@tpwd.state.tx.us )

Carter Smith, Executive Director of TPWD

-------------

Ray Roberts is leased to Texas Parks and Wildlife SEE: http://www.swf-wc.usace.army.mil/rayroberts/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Complete PDF of Title 36 CFR http://www.swf-wc.usace.army.mil/rayrob ... itle36.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Check with TPWD about specific rules and regulations





According to Carter Smith, Executive Director of TPWD,
CHLs are allowed to carry ...

Only inside the State Parks and/or property leased to TPWD (Ray Roberts is leased to TPWD )
http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/spdest/find ... erts_lake/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not on other US Army Corps of Engineers property which is NOT leased to TPWD ... http://www.swf-wc.usace.army.mil/rayroberts/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

----------
Senator John Cornyn said in January:
the Bureau of Land Management and the United States Forest Service allow the transporting and carrying of firearms on federal lands in accordance with the laws of the host state where these two agencies manage lands.

However, the National Parks Service (NPS) and the Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS) are governed by separate federal statutes and have developed differing sets of firearms regulations.
-------------------
My layman's conclusion:

National Parks and Wildlife Refuges are legal now too ....... the USCOE though is separate from all 5 of the above, and still confusing sometimes I think. But, if you are in an area owned by USCOE (U.S. Army Corps of Engineers), but either leased to TPWD or a State/National Park, you should be OK.
-------
When I want to go somewhere, first I check TPWD, then the others ...

Texas Parks and Wildlife Department
National Parks Service-
National Wildlife Preserves
Bureau of Land Management-
United States Forest Service
U.S. Army Corps of Engineers
----------

See: http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/huntwild/hu ... _legal.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(ALSO COVERS U.S. FOREST SERVICE UNITS in Texas managed by TPWD)
NOTICE: The prohibited acts and other public hunting regulations
do not in any way restrict a person having a concealed
handgun license from possessing a concealed handgun,
loaded or unloaded, on public hunting lands in strict accordance
with the concealed handgun laws.
Last edited by RPB on Fri Mar 12, 2010 6:16 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: State Park carry?

#10

Post by rob845 » Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:23 pm

Sorry to hijack..... But I am actually heading out to Sam Houston State Park this weekend. Everything I have found shows that CC would be ok. Does anyone else have any different info?
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Re: State Park carry?

#11

Post by Rex B » Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:28 pm

So, I understand that lakes with State Parks, it's OK to carry in the parks themselves.
Am I to understand that is is also legal to carry on a boat, out on the lake?

Lake Whitney is the locale I have in mind.
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Re: State Park carry?

#12

Post by RPB » Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:40 pm

Rex B wrote:So, I understand that lakes with State Parks, it's OK to carry in the parks themselves.
Am I to understand that is is also legal to carry on a boat, out on the lake?

Lake Whitney is the locale I have in mind.
Lake Whitney and Whitney State Park is the very reason I started e-mailing the Senators, Governor etc etc ...

Whitney DIFFERS from Ray Roberts ....
COE website indicates that all of Ray Roberts is LEASED TO TPWD (The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, Fort Worth District welcomes you to Ray Roberts Lake. The lake is located in Denton County,Texas.

Ray Roberts is leased to Texas Parks and Wildlife and as partners we are working toward the preservation and protection of the natural resources in and around the lake.

BUT COE website indicates that Lake Whitney IS NOT LEASED TO TPWD (Except the State Park)..... However, there is a State Park there you may carry in.

http://www.swf-wc.usace.army.mil/whitney/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/spdest/find ... e_whitney/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Reservoir Controlling Authority
US Army Corps of Engineers

285 CR 3602
Clifton, Texas 76634
(254) 694-3189
Fishing Regulations...Statewide regulations apply to all fishes.




Here's your safest bet probably. Because no one has clearly stated the consequences to me of being in a State Park, then launching my kayak FROM the State Park into the COE lake ... or wadefishing in the COE lake FROM the State Park shore.
Per Carter Smith, Executive Director, Texas Parks and Wildlife, Contact:
Mr. Wes Masur, State Park Law Enforcement Director, 512-389-8001 or E-mail him at wes.masur@tpwd.state.tx.us
Last edited by RPB on Fri Mar 12, 2010 5:03 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: State Park carry?

#13

Post by wilder » Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:43 pm

killerfly128 wrote:Going to be going camping soon at Ray Roberts ... would it be legal to carry there?
Seems like the legal question has been answered. I've camped at the Johnson Branch unit several times (and have a reservation next week) in the primitive areas. I've had the gate attendant warn me that coyotes had been in the area and ask if I had anything for protection from them. I replied yes ma'am I do and that was the end of the conversation.


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Re: State Park carry?

#14

Post by Rex B » Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:46 pm

Email sent, will report results.
thanks
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Re: State Park carry?

#15

Post by RPB » Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:58 pm

More info on Ray Roberts (DOC)
http://www.swf-wc.usace.army.mil/lewisv ... oberts.doc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
All public land at Ray Roberts Lake is owned by the Federal Government and is under the administration of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers (Corps). The Corps and the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department (TPWD) are partners in the daily management of public land at Ray Roberts Lake. TPWD manages all parks (except the Overlook Park)

Note: The Ray Roberts WMA is included in TPWD’s Public Hunting Lands Program. All hunters entering the WMA must possess on their person a Texas Parks and Wildlife Annual Hunting Permit and must enter the WMA only at points designated for general public access.

The Greenbelt Corridor is dedicated for public recreation and is currently managed by Texas Parks and Wildlife as a controlled access area. The Greenbelt Corridor area will continue to be managed as a controlled access recreation area similar to park areas.

Ray Roberts is leased to Texas Parks and Wildlife SEE: http://www.swf-wc.usace.army.mil/rayroberts/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Complete PDF of Title 36 CFR http://www.swf-wc.usace.army.mil/rayrob ... itle36.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Check with TPWD about specific rules and regulations
------------
Whitney looks complicated, walk on this path the TPWD made and manages, don't step over there on COE property ...
Don't put the tent too close to the water or you may be on COE property if it rains and the water comes higher :mrgreen:


If you go to ANY COE property that TPWD says it's OK, I'd take a printed copy of them saying it's OK with you. And be sure they answer your specific questions on it, so the LEO doesn't say "Yes you were legal in the Park on the shore, but you stepped in the COE water now Bubba ... Federal Crime ....."

The same goes for Granger, Stillhouse Hollow, Lake Georgetown ... and any other COE lakes the TPWD Game Wardens or Park Rangers patrol.
(Some Parks have non-LEO "Park Security" officers in addition to Game Wardens and Park Rangers)
The Corps of Engineers have jurisdiction over 24 lakes and 18 lakes are under the jurisdiction of other authorities, water districts counties, or municipalities – all of these agencies operate numerous parks and camping facilities.
Last edited by RPB on Fri Mar 12, 2010 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm no lawyer

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