State Park carry?

CHL discussions that do not fit into more specific topics

Moderators: Charles L. Cotton, carlson1


RPB
Banned
Posts in topic: 12
Posts: 8697
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: State Park carry?

#31

Post by RPB » Mon Mar 15, 2010 6:34 pm

In anticipation of your next question, Why isn't a motorboat a motor vehicle ....

The only definition I CAN FIND of what a motor vehicle is in Texas comes from the Occupations Code ....(although we have a Texas Motor Vehicle Board regulating motor vehicles)

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... C.2301.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

23) "Motor vehicle" means:

(A) a fully self-propelled vehicle having two or more wheels that has as its primary purpose the transport of a person or persons, or property, on a public highway;

(B) a fully self-propelled vehicle having two or more wheels that:

(i) has as its primary purpose the transport of a person or persons or property;

(ii) is not manufactured for use on public streets, roads, or highways; and

(iii) has been issued a certificate of title;

(C) an engine, transmission, or rear axle, regardless of whether attached to a vehicle chassis, manufactured for installation in a vehicle that has:

(i) the transport of a person or persons, or property, on a public highway as its primary purpose; and

(ii) a gross vehicle weight rating of more than 16,000 pounds; or

(D) a towable recreational vehicle.



TEXAS MOTOR VEHICLE BOARD
Court case

http://www.supreme.courts.state.tx.us/e ... 045405.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

TEXAS MOTOR VEHICLE BOARD proposed legislation to re-define "motor vehicle"
http://texinfo.library.unt.edu/texasreg ... ATION.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Texas Motor Vehicle Board of the Texas Department of Transportation proposes new §103.17, concerning the definition of motor vehicle under the Texas Occupations Code. This proposed new rule seeks to clarify the definition of motor vehicle to include motorized scooters and other equivalent vehicles.


Proposed new §103.17 clarifies the definition of motor vehicle under Texas Occupations Code §2301.002(23)(A) to include motorized scooters and other like vehicles that meet certain specified criteria. First, to meet the definition of motor vehicle a motorized scooter must be able to commence and continue movement without manual assistance, as stated in proposed subsection §103.17(a)(1). Second, a motorized scooter possessing that capability must also meet one of the additional criteria listed in subsection (a)(2) to be deemed a motor vehicle under the proposed rule. Proposed §103.17(a)(2) requires a motorized scooter to be certified either as a moped by the Texas Department of Public Safety under subsection (a)(2)(A), or capable of being certified as a motor vehicle by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration under subsection (a)(2)(B). However, if a motorized scooter is not certified under either category, then it may still be deemed a motor vehicle if it meets 3 of 5 alternative criteria listed under proposed subsection (a)(2)(C). The proposed rule further clarifies in subsection (b) that a motorized scooter or equivalent vehicle does not include go-carts or motorized mobility devices.
I'm no lawyer

"Never show your hole card" "Always have something in reserve"


srothstein
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 3
Posts: 4027
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2006 8:27 pm
Location: Luling, TX

Re: State Park carry?

#32

Post by srothstein » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:22 pm

Umm,

There is a better definition in Transportation Code section 502.001. You do need to combine a few sections though. Here are all the parts of the definitions that make up vehicles and motor vehicles. Some of the things people don't normally think about include trailers being vehicles and some of the not as common motor vehicles (golf carts and such).

As an aside, there is no more Motor Vehicle Board in Texas. As of last Sep. 1, the Board got taken away from DOT and made into its own department, the Department of Motor Vehicles (or DMV as some will recognize).


(1) "All-terrain vehicle" means a motor vehicle that is:
(A) equipped with a saddle for the use of:
(i) the rider; and
(ii) a passenger, if the motor vehicle is designed by the manufacturer to transport a passenger;
(B) designed to propel itself with three or more tires in contact with the ground;
(C) designed by the manufacturer for off-highway use; and
(D) not designed by the manufacturer primarily for farming or lawn care.
(2) "Commercial motor vehicle" means a motor vehicle, other than a motorcycle, designed or used primarily to transport property. The term includes a passenger car reconstructed and used primarily for delivery purposes. The term does not include a passenger car used to deliver the United States mail.
(4) "Farm semitrailer" means a semitrailer designed and used primarily as a farm vehicle.
(5) "Farm tractor" means a motor vehicle designed and used primarily as a farm implement for drawing other implements of husbandry.
(6) "Farm trailer" means a trailer designed and used primarily as a farm vehicle.
(7) "Golf cart" means a motor vehicle designed by the manufacturer primarily for transporting persons on a golf course.
(9) "Light truck" means a commercial motor vehicle that has a manufacturer's rated carrying capacity of one ton or less.
(11) "Motor bus" includes every vehicle used to transport persons on the public highways for compensation, other than:
(A) a vehicle operated by muscular power; or
(B) a municipal bus.
(12) "Motorcycle" means a motor vehicle designed to propel itself with not more than three wheels in contact with the ground. The term does not include a tractor.
(13) "Motor vehicle" means a vehicle that is self-propelled.
(17) "Passenger car" means a motor vehicle, other than a motorcycle, golf cart, light truck, or bus, designed or used primarily for the transportation of persons.
(19-a) "Recreational off-highway vehicle" means a motor vehicle that is:
(A) equipped with a non-straddle seat for the use of:
(i) the rider; and
(ii) a passenger, if the vehicle is designed by the manufacturer to transport a passenger;
(B) designed to propel itself with four or more tires in contact with the ground;
(C) designed by the manufacturer for off-highway use by the operator only; and
(D) not designed by the manufacturer primarily for farming or lawn care.
(20) "Road tractor" means a vehicle designed for the purpose of mowing the right-of-way of a public highway or a motor vehicle designed or used for drawing another vehicle or a load and not constructed to carry:
(A) an independent load; or
(B) a part of the weight of the vehicle and load to be drawn.
(21) "Semitrailer" means a vehicle designed or used with a motor vehicle so that part of the weight of the vehicle and its load rests on or is carried by another vehicle.
(22) "Trailer" means a vehicle that:
(A) is designed or used to carry a load wholly on its own structure; and
(B) is drawn or designed to be drawn by a motor vehicle.
(23) "Truck-tractor" means a motor vehicle:
(A) designed and used primarily for drawing another vehicle; and
(B) not constructed to carry a load other than a part of the weight of the vehicle and load to be drawn.
(24) "Vehicle" means a device in or by which a person or property is or may be transported or drawn on a public highway, other than a device used exclusively on stationary rails or tracks.
Steve Rothstein


RPB
Banned
Posts in topic: 12
Posts: 8697
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: State Park carry?

#33

Post by RPB » Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:02 am

You are absolutly right Steve.
I need a link to a website for mental UPDATES; to upgrade my processor.
I didn't look real hard, and I should have checked Transportation Code first, but I guess the TEXAS MOTOR VEHICLE BOARD was trying to change the definition Occupation Code before... and I jumped over there instead.
I need to keep up better with changes .... still mad that YIELD signs are no longer yellow and black (kidding)
I should try to research as well as when I used to get paid to do it, but alas, retirement made me lazy.
Thanks.
I concur, and defer, and YIELD to your posted definition ... lol
Boats aren't motor vehicles under either definition.
ImageImage
I'm no lawyer

"Never show your hole card" "Always have something in reserve"


chabouk
Banned
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 1219
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 7:01 am

Re: State Park carry?

#34

Post by chabouk » Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:34 am

So a V8-powered unicycle isn't a motor vehicle? Cool! :mrgreen:

It's strange that they define a towed recreational vehicle (i.e., a travel trailer), which has no motor, as a "motor vehicle".

I guess I could break out my pedant hat and point out that electric cars are the only vehicles that move by the power of a motor. Those that run on gasoline or diesel use engines, not motors. :biggrinjester:


srothstein
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 3
Posts: 4027
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2006 8:27 pm
Location: Luling, TX

Re: State Park carry?

#35

Post by srothstein » Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:49 am

chabouk wrote:So a V8-powered unicycle isn't a motor vehicle? Cool!
Sure it is. A vehicle is anything designed to carry people on a street. A motor vehicle is any vehicle that is self-propelled.
It's strange that they define a towed recreational vehicle (i.e., a travel trailer), which has no motor, as a "motor vehicle".
I did not see that in there. A vehicle is towed or self-propelled, a motor vehicle is self-propelled.
I guess I could break out my pedant hat and point out that electric cars are the only vehicles that move by the power of a motor. Those that run on gasoline or diesel use engines, not motors. :biggrinjester:
This I have to give you, but if one law can define a semi-automatic weapon as an assault rifle, another law can define a vehicle with an engine as a motor vehicle.
Steve Rothstein


RPB
Banned
Posts in topic: 12
Posts: 8697
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: State Park carry?

#36

Post by RPB » Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:51 pm

Just bored ... so I sent this ... (Also CCd to Senator Tester of Montana I believe, who is working with Kay B Hutcheson on some pro-gun issues... as well as to wes.masur@tpwd.state.tx.us at TPWD.

U.S. Army Corps of Engineers
District Engineer

CC: Honorable Representative K. Michael Conaway
CC: Senator John Cornyn


Please advise how to go about contacting the District Engineer. And what forms need to be filled out, if any.
As of May 27, 2007 there were 8,911,818 cars in Texas.
According to the regulation below, we each need written permission from the District Engineer to park our cars (which legally contain concealed handguns under Texas Penal Code Sec. 46.02) in the parking areas of on U.S. Army Corps of engineers parks and recreation areas.
I imagine all the Concealed Handgun Licensees will also need written permission. (Active License Holders 314,574 as of 12/31/2008, but many thousands more since Obama got into office)

I'll be as helpful as possible and publish the District Engineer's address so they may each request permission.
I'll have my request filed as soon as I get your reply, and a list of what information or documents are required to obtain it.

Per a prior e-mail, you stated that the Tejas Park is within the USACOE boundaries, but leased to TPWD. Ok, just to be sure ... Tejas Park is in the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department area so is it Ok to park there with a concealed handgun in the car (Texas Motorist Protection act) and Also OK to carry a loaded concealed weapon with a current valid Texas Concealed Handgun License? I have no interest at all in hunting, just fishing and self-protection.
http://www.swf-wc.usace.army.mil/george ... %20Map.JPG" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Thank you.

------------
From: "Weber, Carey D SWF" <Carey.D.Weber@usace.army.mil>
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 03:59 PM
Subject: RE: Lake Georgetown

Tejas Park is at Lake Georgetown, where all property is owned and managed by
the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. The wildlife management areas at Granger
Lake are licensed to Texas Parks and Wildlife Dept., but remain U.S. Army
Corps of Engineers property. Thanks, Carey.


-----------
To: Carey.D.Weber@usace.army.mil
Subject: USACOE Parks and Lakes

So are you saying we can NOT park our cars which contain a legally concealed handgun under Texas Law, in the parking area of a USACOE park in Texas even if it is leased to the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department, unless I have written permission from the District Engineer?
Are you saying that I can be in my kayak drift fishing in Brazos River Authority, San Gabriel River, that you have no sign stating that I am now entering a USCOE Lake where firearms are prohibited unless I have written permission, but I'm supposed KNOW where that imaginary line is?
And are you saying that we can NOT fish from the bank in Texas State Parks on USCOE Lakes where the TPWD leases the land for a State Park, unless I have written permission from the District Engineer? Or are you saying we CAN fish there from the bank/shore, but not wade fish in the water, unless I have written permission from the District Engineer?What if I'm fishing from the shore and need to get my lure un-hung and need to wade out, or if a swimming child calls for help? Will I need to run to the car to lock up my gun before jumping in to save him? or should I just leave it on shore covered/concealed by a towel and hope no other child uses the towel to dry off so I can save the other from drowning?

When entering one of the Parks or recreation areas, are there gates where we leave our guns from our cars and pick them up on the way out?

Also, since you don't have a sign or boundary marker in the river channel where we are in our boats/kayaks/canoes/float tubes or signs and receptacles beside the river on the bank/shore for us to know where your property begins, where should we deposit and pick up our guns while in the river you don't own and the wind drifts us into the river part you DO own at the upper end of your lakes and just below the dams (where the white bass are running now)?

Thank you.

---------

They previously responded with this

Your inquiry was forwarded to me for response. Attached are detailed maps showing the approximate location of the U. S. Army Corps of Engineers boundary at the western and eastern limits. Some of these areas are not fenced. All other areas of the boundary are fenced. These are shown on the lake map at the following link:

http://www.swf-wc.usace.army.mil/george ... n/Maps.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. At Granger Lake the wildlife management areas are licensed to the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department for hunting areas, but ownership is retained by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. You may contact the Granger Lake Manager at James.D.Chambers@usace.army.mil for more information. Thank you for your interest in Lake Georgetown. Carey.

<<LakeGeorgetownW.jpg>> <<LakeGeorgetownE.jpg>>


Carey D. Weber
Georgetown Lake Manager
500 Lake Overlook Dr.
Georgetown, Tx. 78633-8238
1-512-819-9046
Last edited by RPB on Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
I'm no lawyer

"Never show your hole card" "Always have something in reserve"


chabouk
Banned
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 1219
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 7:01 am

Re: State Park carry?

#37

Post by chabouk » Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:07 pm

srothstein wrote:
chabouk wrote:So a V8-powered unicycle isn't a motor vehicle? Cool!
Sure it is. A vehicle is anything designed to carry people on a street. A motor vehicle is any vehicle that is self-propelled.
It's strange that they define a towed recreational vehicle (i.e., a travel trailer), which has no motor, as a "motor vehicle".
I did not see that in there. A vehicle is towed or self-propelled, a motor vehicle is self-propelled.
I was referring to the section that RPB posted, where the definition of "motor vehicle" says it has two or more wheels, and (D) lists a "towable recreational vehicle".


srothstein
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 3
Posts: 4027
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2006 8:27 pm
Location: Luling, TX

Re: State Park carry?

#38

Post by srothstein » Wed Mar 17, 2010 11:14 pm

chabouk wrote:
srothstein wrote:
chabouk wrote:So a V8-powered unicycle isn't a motor vehicle? Cool!
Sure it is. A vehicle is anything designed to carry people on a street. A motor vehicle is any vehicle that is self-propelled.
It's strange that they define a towed recreational vehicle (i.e., a travel trailer), which has no motor, as a "motor vehicle".
I did not see that in there. A vehicle is towed or self-propelled, a motor vehicle is self-propelled.
I was referring to the section that RPB posted, where the definition of "motor vehicle" says it has two or more wheels, and (D) lists a "towable recreational vehicle".
Sorry, I had not even read everything they listed there since I knew of the better definition. That is interesting, the way they define it though. I knew that you needed a dealer's license for the RV trailers, but I had never paid enough attention to the way the Law defined it. Apparently, you are correct that you woul dnot need the license to sell the V-8 powered unicycle.
Steve Rothstein

User avatar

Grundy1133
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 4
Posts: 1080
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:18 pm
Location: Gainesville

Re: State Park carry?

#39

Post by Grundy1133 » Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:54 am

So what I gather from this old thread is I can carry in the Johnson branch state park but if I go out on the water I have to disarm. I don't plan on going in the water so I should be good... Or am I wrong?
Image
NRA Member

User avatar

Grundy1133
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 4
Posts: 1080
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:18 pm
Location: Gainesville

Re: State Park carry?

#40

Post by Grundy1133 » Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:53 pm

I guess I'll carry and hope nobody notices..
Image
NRA Member

User avatar

tbrown
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 1593
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 4:47 pm

Re: State Park carry?

#41

Post by tbrown » Sat Jul 28, 2018 7:00 pm

Grundy1133 wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:53 pm
I guess I'll carry and hope nobody notices..
That's always an option. Unfortunately, ACOE doesn't allow good guys to carry on "their" land because they don't respect civilian RKBA. National Parks allow concealed carry outdoors, but only if the surrounding state does, which is not ideal but much better than ACOE. BLM follows similar rules to NPS.
sent to you from my safe space in the hill country

User avatar

Grundy1133
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 4
Posts: 1080
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:18 pm
Location: Gainesville

Re: State Park carry?

#42

Post by Grundy1133 » Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:46 pm

tbrown wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 7:00 pm
Grundy1133 wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:53 pm
I guess I'll carry and hope nobody notices..
That's always an option. Unfortunately, ACOE doesn't allow good guys to carry on "their" land because they don't respect civilian RKBA. National Parks allow concealed carry outdoors, but only if the surrounding state does, which is not ideal but much better than ACOE. BLM follows similar rules to NPS.
Well what I gathered was the ACOE leased the lake itself to the state and not the surrounding land. So as long as I don't go in the water I'm fine. At least that's the way I understood everything mentioned here...
Image
NRA Member

User avatar

couzin
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 951
Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 7:12 pm
Location: Terrell, Texas

Re: State Park carry?

#43

Post by couzin » Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:22 pm

Grundy1133 wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:46 pm
Well what I gathered was the ACOE leased the lake itself to the state and not the surrounding land. So as long as I don't go in the water I'm fine. At least that's the way I understood everything mentioned here...
Actually the land (fee-owned) and the lake is government owned and controlled (USACE) and 36CFR327 does apply. The management of properties is turned over via lease and license to the State of Texas and other vendors (although I am not sure Ray Roberts has any private vendors), but the 36CFR327 rules and regulations still are applicable. The water drawn off and stored in the reservoir is the property of the Texas Water Development Board. USACE manages the flood pool water and the recreation water (think like it is a big layer cake).
“Only at the end do you realize the power of the Dark Side.”


Ruark
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 1104
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:11 pm

Re: State Park carry?

#44

Post by Ruark » Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:28 pm

Whoa, whoa, whooooooa. Read that federal law again. It says "the possession of loaded firearms...." So if you're on COE property, you can carry, but just keep the magazine handy. Right?
-Ruark


chasfm11
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 3346
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:01 pm
Location: Northern DFW

Re: State Park carry?

#45

Post by chasfm11 » Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:26 am

Ruark wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:28 pm
Whoa, whoa, whooooooa. Read that federal law again. It says "the possession of loaded firearms...." So if you're on COE property, you can carry, but just keep the magazine handy. Right?
No. Federal regulation 357.13 (a) Possession of loaded firearms, ammunition......is prohibited.

This one sticks in my craw because we have an RV and used to like to camp on COE property. Lake Whitney is a great example where there is both a COE RV park the the Lake Whitney SP park which is controlled by the COE. When we traveled, there were a number of nice COE parks in SC.

In addition, it means that I cannot park on any of the parking lots on Lake Grapevine even if I follow the FOPA rules of separating and locking the ammunition.

One could say that this is too narrow of an interpretation. One could also say that the COE has already lost in Federal court in their denial of concealed carry and has chosen to implement that loss only in the Federal district in which the loss occurred. I believe that President Trump could direct the Secretary of the Army to implement that decision across the country and make this all go away. But until it does, that is the Federal law.
6/23-8/13/10 -51 days to plastic
Dun Spiro Spero

Post Reply

Return to “General Texas CHL Discussion”