Travis County Expo Center - Saxet Gun Show

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RiveraRa
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Travis County Expo Center - Saxet Gun Show

#1

Post by RiveraRa » Thu Dec 16, 2010 11:48 am

I searched and couldn't find but 1 or 2 mentions of the Saxet Gun Show at the Travis County Expo Center (TCEC).
I hear that the TCEC is posted with a 30.06 but that it is owned by the county (government). Therefore, the sign is invalid.

First off, am I correct in my thinking?

Secondly, if this is true, then I am ok to carry inside (concealed means concealed) until they ask me to leave or disarm correct?

If they physically ask me if I'm carrying concealed, I'm free to answer however I like correct (as long as its not an LEO)?

Has anyone had any experience yet with this particular situation/venue?
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Re: Travis County Expo Center - Saxet Gun Show

#2

Post by A-R » Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:42 pm

RiveraRa wrote:I searched and couldn't find but 1 or 2 mentions of the Saxet Gun Show at the Travis County Expo Center (TCEC).
I hear that the TCEC is posted with a 30.06 but that it is owned by the county (government). Therefore, the sign is invalid.

First off, am I correct in my thinking?
As far as I'm concerned you are, but I'm not a lawyer, nor a gun show promotor, nor a LEO who checks in guns at a gun show (see below)
RiveraRa wrote:Secondly, if this is true, then I am ok to carry inside (concealed means concealed) until they ask me to leave or disarm correct?

If they physically ask me if I'm carrying concealed, I'm free to answer however I like correct (as long as its not an LEO)?
They are posted 30.06 and do have LEOs at the doors checking for guns and putting zip ties on them. If the officer asks if you have a gun and you do but say you do not, you're breaking the law. Again, IANAL.
RiveraRa wrote:Has anyone had any experience yet with this particular situation/venue?
Yes, I went to the last show and had a 5-minute conversation with the guy who claimed to be in chareg of the gun show (no reason to think he wasn't, I just didn't independently verify this info) and the two APD officers on hand to check guns. I told them I was a CHL instructor and read to them the relevant statutes (keep a copy handy in my iPhone) and all three continued to disagree with me saying basicallly "the gun show promotor is in charge of this building during the show, he is responsible for it, therefore he can and will deny you entrance if you're carrying a loaded weapon". Asked if I would be arrested for ignoring the prohibition on guns and carrying anyway, one APD officer said I would be trespassing (then told me I was wrong when I explained my interpretation of 30.05 and 30.06 says I'm not trespassing), and the gun show promotor basically said he would ask me to disarm and if I refused he'd have me escorted off the property but "wouldn't press charges."

Important to note that I DID follow their "policy" and was NOT carrying at the time of this conversation.

As an aside, I was disappointed in the show anyway. Still better than the show at the Target on William Canon & I-35, but not as good as the old Saxet shows. A lot of overpriced Chinese junk parts (was looking for an elevation adjustable rear iron sight for an AR-15 - some tables wanted $100 for NCStar junk).

I likely won't be back unless there is something I REALLY need.

Also please note all of the "quoted" material above is from my not-so-good memory of this conversation that happened about a month ago.

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Re: Travis County Expo Center - Saxet Gun Show

#3

Post by Dragonfighter » Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:54 pm

RiveraRa wrote:I searched and couldn't find but 1 or 2 mentions of the Saxet Gun Show at the Travis County Expo Center (TCEC).
I hear that the TCEC is posted with a 30.06 but that it is owned by the county (government). Therefore, the sign is invalid.

First off, am I correct in my thinking?
Any 30.06 sign posted on property owned or leased by a government entity is unenforceable not necessarily invalid (incorrect verbiage, letter size, etc.). It does not mean you will not be harassed by LEO or show directors. Some LEO agencies (Grapevine) have vowed to arrest despite validity or enforceability.
Secondly, if this is true, then I am ok to carry inside (concealed means concealed) until they ask me to leave or disarm correct?
Again, it does not matter in THIS instance if someone tells you to disarm or leave (as long is it is for carrying) or not. 30.06 is unenforceable. The practical reality may be a ride and legal fees etc. but it is still unenforceable.
If they physically ask me if I'm carrying concealed, I'm free to answer however I like correct (as long as its not an LEO)?
If an honest answer is counterproductive, either don't answer or deflect the question. Lying is morally wrong besides fostering animosity with LEO's working the show. But you don't have to answer and lying AFAIK is not a crime unless done in sworn testimony or obstructing an investigation. That said, if an LEO asks for your I.D. and you are carrying you are required by law to show both your DL (Or state issued I.D.) and your CHL...which would be saying, "Yes officer, I am carrying a concealed weapon." As to the practical reality, see above.
Has anyone had any experience yet with this particular situation/venue?
I haven't.

RANT Warning:

Until the promoters and LEO agencies are slapped down by financial penalties (I.E. Lawsuits) or the laws change assigning criminal penalties for incorrectly enforcing, posting or arresting CHLers, the oppression and intimidation will continue.
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Re: Travis County Expo Center - Saxet Gun Show

#4

Post by sailor2000 » Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:04 pm

The show premise is hired / rented / leased BY the show promoter, making it his (or her) premise for the duration of the event. The promoter posts the 30.06, not the government entity. I would regard it as valid (I R NOT A LAWYER).

BTW, as a former gun show circuit dealer (40+ weekends a year for 2+ years) I LIKE that the public is prevented (as well as is practical) from bringing loaded or operable weapons into the shows. I witnessed too many (1 was way more than enough) NDs by dealers during show set-up as it was.

Not all CHL holders are as smart or safe as we might wish. I know YOU are, it is that guy next to you that wants to see how his loaded carry piece fits in the holster on my table that worries me.
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Re: Travis County Expo Center - Saxet Gun Show

#5

Post by A-R » Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:22 pm

sailor2000 wrote:The show premise is hired / rented / leased BY the show promoter, making it his (or her) premise for the duration of the event. The promoter posts the 30.06, not the government entity. I would regard it as valid (I R NOT A LAWYER).
IANAL either, but AFAIK you are wrong on the legal facts on this one. TPC 30.06 (e) does not make an exception for someone who leases property from a government entity. Basically if a government entity owns it, then NO ONE can give a legally enforceable 30.06 notice for that property. Again, IANAL, but this is my understanding of the relevant statute.
Texas Penal Code 30.06 (e) It is an exception to the application of this section that the property on which the license holder carries a handgun is owned or leased by a governmental entity and is not a premises or other place on which the license holder is prohibited from carrying the handgun under Section 46.03 or 46.035.
And, of course, gun show promoters, rent-a-cops, etc. can tell you to leave for some other reason and then if you don't they can charge you under PC 30.05 ... but that's a whole different set of circumstances and a whole other discussion.
sailor2000 wrote:BTW, as a former gun show circuit dealer (40+ weekends a year for 2+ years) I LIKE that the public is prevented (as well as is practical) from bringing loaded or operable weapons into the shows. I witnessed too many (1 was way more than enough) NDs by dealers during show set-up as it was.

Not all CHL holders are as smart or safe as we might wish. I know YOU are, it is that guy next to you that wants to see how his loaded carry piece fits in the holster on my table that worries me.
If you don't trust people, then why would you want to sell them (or facilitate a sale to them of) firearms?

These same people you don't trust to enter your gun show with a loaded weapon are right next to you in line at the grocery store with a loaded gun, at the movies, at church, AND at just about any gun store in this state. How is it that so many people carry in gun stores and never have an ND, but if they do the same at a gun show, NDs are bound to happen?

Sorry, but I don't buy the argument that we all must be CONTROLLED because SOME of us may not be safe. That's a very slippery slope to a complete ban on all guns because they're too dangerous in the hands of SOME people.

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Re: Travis County Expo Center - Saxet Gun Show

#6

Post by ScottDLS » Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:59 pm

:iagree:

I'm really considering going to a gun show at a publicly owned venue while armed. I'll let them zip tie my gun, but hide a mag in my shoe, then go in the bathroom, cut off the zip tie and put the mag in. I'm tired of having my rights trampled on by people who are misinformed of the law.
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Re: Travis County Expo Center - Saxet Gun Show

#7

Post by LarryH » Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:32 pm

Let us know how that works out for you.


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Re: Travis County Expo Center - Saxet Gun Show

#8

Post by Mike1951 » Thu Dec 16, 2010 11:41 pm

ScottDLS wrote::iagree:

I'm really considering going to a gun show at a publicly owned venue while armed. I'll let them zip tie my gun, but hide a mag in my shoe, then go in the bathroom, cut off the zip tie and put the mag in. I'm tired of having my rights trampled on by people who are misinformed of the law.
I've found that if you are involved in a conversation with your buddy as you walk through, you can ignore the cops to the point that they don't even ask.
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Re: Travis County Expo Center - Saxet Gun Show

#9

Post by sailor2000 » Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:08 pm

[quote="austinrealtorIf you don't trust people, then why would you want to sell them (or facilitate a sale to them of) firearms? [/quote]

There were some people to whom I chose not to sell firearms, based solely on my 'feeling' about them. This was back before NICS, so the only obstacle between someone I judged the planet would be better off not having a gun and the gun on my table was me. The guy at the next table might sell them one, but it wasn't going to be me. There are some folks who just plain shouldn't be armed.

On the 'trust' issue and operable firearms in gun shows, I will relate the following experience. We usually had a fairly large display, 9 to 11 tables on an end cap. You tried to have your head on a swivel and eyes in the back of your head, but you just couldn't watch everything every second. As I completed a transaction with a customer, I saw a man with a revolver from which he had removed the 'tie' strap applied at the front door. He was going through my revolver ammo display, opening the boxes, removing a round from each box and attempting to chamber it. He had several opened boxes and now loose rounds of different sizes laying on the table. When I approached and stopped him, he explained he was trying to see what size fit his gun.

There is something about gun shows that brings out the stupid in lots of folks who would ordinarily know better. The dealers are probably the worst offenders. They were responsible for all the NDs I witnessed. Probably because they were the most likely to have access to operable firearms. I guess I am just sensitive, having had a 9mm fire in my general direction (thankfully it was angled up at about a 40 degree angle over my head) when a dealer decided to drop the hammer to put a tie on the Uzi he was holding.
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Re: Travis County Expo Center - Saxet Gun Show

#10

Post by A-R » Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:36 pm

sailor2000 wrote:There are some folks who just plain shouldn't be armed.
sailor2000, I get what you're saying. I understand your anxiety over dumb & dumberer having access to weapons around you. And you as a business owner are certainly within your right to deny service to someone, as long as you don't violate their civil rights in the process (read: no "whites only" lunch counters etc).

But, until society at large determines that an individual should no longer have access to arms via the court system, what right is it of yours to determine who shall and who shall not have the Right to Keep and Bear Arms? Again, I'm not saying you as a business owner don't have the right to deny service or entrance to your property to anyone. But in a scenario of you renting property from the government - basically renting from all us taxpayers - then you give up your right to deny our entrance while legally carrying. Furthermore, the thought process of "some folks shouldn't have guns" is exactly the slippery slope I was referring to in my earlier post.

Someone was loading live ammo into their gun at your booth? Did you have them ejected from the premises I hope? As far as how to stop this from happening without infringing on EVERYONE's RKBA .... why not put the live ammo someplace where every Tom, Dick, and Harry can't put their grubby hands on it without asking you first?

Sorry, your arguments just ring hollow to me. The mere fact that stupid people exist in this world and sometimes attend gun shows is not reason enough to deny me MY RIGHTS.


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Re: Travis County Expo Center - Saxet Gun Show

#11

Post by HankB » Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:16 pm

austinrealtor wrote: . . . As an aside, I was disappointed in the show anyway. Still better than the show at the Target on William Canon & I-35, but not as good as the old Saxet shows. A lot of overpriced Chinese junk parts (was looking for an elevation adjustable rear iron sight for an AR-15 - some tables wanted $100 for NCStar junk).
Thank you for the evaluation . . . I was considering tomorrow's show, but noticed that it's competing with one in Bell County ("The Real Gun Show") this weekend as well . . . I think I'll hold off visiting this one until sometime next year.

I noticed the FLOOD of low quality (yet overpriced!) junk from China at a SAXET show in San Antonio a month or two back . . . I also noticed that more than a few small accessory vendors had "one" Chinese scope, binocular, or accessory for sale. I think they bought it at a previous show, found out how BAD it really was, and were now trying to find a sucker to sell it to.
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Re: Travis County Expo Center - Saxet Gun Show

#12

Post by sailor2000 » Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:24 am

Go here to see how this horse was beaten previously;

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=37934&p=451433&hili ... 06#p451433" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Travis County Expo Center - Saxet Gun Show

#13

Post by ScottDLS » Sat Dec 18, 2010 10:56 am

See the threads on the Texas State Fair to see how CHL holders ultimately prevailed in a similar situation.
4/13/1996 Completed CHL Class, 4/16/1996 Fingerprints, Affidavits, and Application Mailed, 10/4/1996 Received CHL, renewed 1998, 2002, 2006, 2011, 2016...). "ATF... Uhhh...heh...heh....Alcohol, tobacco, and GUNS!! Cool!!!!"


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Re: Travis County Expo Center - Saxet Gun Show

#14

Post by MeMelYup » Sat Dec 18, 2010 11:00 am

sailor2000 wrote:[quote="austinrealtorIf you don't trust people, then why would you want to sell them (or facilitate a sale to them of) firearms?
There were some people to whom I chose not to sell firearms, based solely on my 'feeling' about them. This was back before NICS, so the only obstacle between someone I judged the planet would be better off not having a gun and the gun on my table was me. The guy at the next table might sell them one, but it wasn't going to be me. There are some folks who just plain shouldn't be armed.

On the 'trust' issue and operable firearms in gun shows, I will relate the following experience. We usually had a fairly large display, 9 to 11 tables on an end cap. You tried to have your head on a swivel and eyes in the back of your head, but you just couldn't watch everything every second. As I completed a transaction with a customer, I saw a man with a revolver from which he had removed the 'tie' strap applied at the front door. He was going through my revolver ammo display, opening the boxes, removing a round from each box and attempting to chamber it. He had several opened boxes and now loose rounds of different sizes laying on the table. When I approached and stopped him, he explained he was trying to see what size fit his gun.

There is something about gun shows that brings out the stupid in lots of folks who would ordinarily know better. The dealers are probably the worst offenders. They were responsible for all the NDs I witnessed. Probably because they were the most likely to have access to operable firearms. I guess I am just sensitive, having had a 9mm fire in my general direction (thankfully it was angled up at about a 40 degree angle over my head) when a dealer decided to drop the hammer to put a tie on the Uzi he was holding.[/quote]

A CHL holder will not have his piece out without just cause. Just cause is not seeing if a holster fits, or which box af ammo fits his gun. If it is out without just cause that person has violated the meaning of concealed carry, and the concealed carry law. My guess is that, the instances mentioned above the people were not CHL holders. So why restrict the law abiding?


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Re: Travis County Expo Center - Saxet Gun Show

#15

Post by sailor2000 » Sat Dec 18, 2010 1:50 pm

As an FYI, at the Shot Show, the annual national trade show for gun dealers and distributors (you need to be in the business to get in), NO personal firearms are permitted, CHL or no, tied or not, none. ALL the firearms on display by the manufacturers or Distributors must have their firing pins removed or for guns without firing pins (revolvers, etc.) be otherwise made mechanically unable to fire.

As someone said in another thread on this subject, the 30.06 or similar loaded / operable weapon prohibition may also be an insurance company requirement.

At the gun shows I very frequently see people (members of the public AND dealers) violating Rule 2 "NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY" and Rule 3 "KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET" because they apparently believe that Rule 1 "ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED" magically doesn't apply at gun shows. I recall during a show back in my dealer days seeing a red laser dot appear on my wife's chest. Being 6' 4" I can usually see pretty far across most any crowd and I spotted an idiot about 5 or 6 rows away 'trying out' a laser equipped pistol by aiming it at my wife. It is probably for the best that by the time I got there he was gone and I never did find the guy in the crowd as I was fuming mad and anxious to give him a John Wayne style lesson in gun safety. :mad5

As I said, being unarmed at a gun show doesn't bother me and I believe that decreasing the number of operable and loaded firearms walking around does increase the safety of the attendees. It is certainly NOT a "gun free zone" given the number of armed LEOs at the shows, both as paid security and as customers, so please don't paint me with that brush.

With this exception, I do my best not to patronize businesses that post 30.06 and tell them why I don't spend my money with them, including the ones with non-compliant signs or even just ghost buster signs. Anyone who really has a problem with the Gun Shows posting 30.06 can apply the same rule to them. :txflag:

Regarding "why not put the live ammo someplace where every Tom, Dick, and Harry can't put their grubby hands on it without asking you first?" the answer is merchandising. After the first row or two of tables most attendees develop what I call the 'gun show stare'... their vision is not really that focused... everything has begun to look alike... the trees get lost in the forest... kind of like trying to look out the side window of a vehicle going 70 mph and looking at the shoulder of the road 6 feet away from you.. it all becomes a blur unless something really stands out from the background. That is why you see high contrast table cover cloth (we used international orange), our female employees in tight jeans or short skirts with low cut blouses, guns on display stands, flashing lights, etc. If the product isn't OUT THERE and in their face, most people will walk right past exactly what they came to buy and never even know they missed it. At a gun show, unless you are a dealer in $10,000 antiques, you are selling pretty much the same thing several other people are. Merchandise display often makes the difference between a sale and packing up whatever it is and taking it back to the warehouse again.

With that, I exit the thread and wish all a Merry Christmas and the most prosperous, safe and happy New Year ever! :cheers2:
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