Church Volunteer Security Groups

CHL discussions that do not fit into more specific topics

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cw3van
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Re: Church Volunteer Security Groups

#106

Post by cw3van » Mon May 13, 2013 7:08 pm

chuckybrown wrote:I find it humorous that people are even arguing with Mr. Cotton.

Some of you don't seem to know his background and involvement in crafting CHL law here in Texas. Do some research.

Kinda like a shade tree mechanic arguing with the engineer that designed the motor.......
:iagree: Yup Mr Cotton has forgot more about CHL law than most on this forum will ever know. He was mentioned in the lastest TSRA mag for taking time to read bills and offer help & advise for those folks.
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carlson1
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Re: Church Volunteer Security Groups

#107

Post by carlson1 » Mon May 13, 2013 7:37 pm

:iagree:

I also believe we in the CHL community fails to give him the thanks and honor he deserves.
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Re: Church Volunteer Security Groups

#108

Post by Photoman » Tue May 14, 2013 12:37 pm

If it were legal to do the things a security guard does while carrying under the authority of a CHL, HB2535 would never have been introduced and we would not be having this conversation.

For those of you that are patrolling parking lots, checking doors, confronting people that are disturbing the church or delivering the offerings to the bank (etc.) while carrying a gun under the authority of your CHL, I strongly encourage you to do more research. A Class A misdemeanor is serious business not to mention the civil liability to yourself and your church.

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Re: Church Volunteer Security Groups

#109

Post by rtschl » Tue May 14, 2013 1:09 pm

:iagree: Charles knows what he's talking about! I am licensed with both level III/IV on our volunteer security team. It's not cheap but we do it so we can legally be armed providing security for our church. We train monthly, we coordinate, organize, drill etc. We could not do this armed if we weren't licensed through PSB. This is not an option for the majority of churches that want to have a coordinated armed volunteer team.

What's interesting is that more than one person has told me that a church can give people the authority to open carry at church for security (the same as happens at gun ranges). :banghead: I've heard that many times, but I always ask (and never get an answer): How can someone give you authority to break the law on private property?
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Re: Church Volunteer Security Groups

#110

Post by recaffeination » Wed May 15, 2013 1:04 pm

chuckybrown wrote:I find it humorous that people are even arguing with Mr. Cotton.
I think it's funny this thread has eight pages of opinions but nobody has quoted where the law says two guys who work in a liquor store can plan what to do in a robbery and not lose their right to carry, and fifty neighbors can form a neighborhood watch and not lose their right to carry, but if twenty people at a church do the same thing it's illegal for them to carry as CHL.
This message was misspelled by my Apple mobile device.

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Re: Church Volunteer Security Groups

#111

Post by Charles L. Cotton » Wed May 15, 2013 2:05 pm

recaffeination wrote:
chuckybrown wrote:I find it humorous that people are even arguing with Mr. Cotton.
I think it's funny this thread has eight pages of opinions but nobody has quoted where the law says two guys who work in a liquor store can plan what to do in a robbery and not lose their right to carry, and fifty neighbors can form a neighborhood watch and not lose their right to carry, but if twenty people at a church do the same thing it's illegal for them to carry as CHL.
This has been posted more than once, but I certainly wouldn't want you to have to do your own research. You too leave out two key elements, -- serving in what legally constitutes a security role and carrying a handgun. Of course you knew that.

Chas.
DPS FAQ wrote:A volunteer security patrol made up of church members would generally require licensing under the provisions of Section 1702.108 or 1702.222, regardless of whether any compensation is received as a result of the activities. The only exception to licensing provided by the legislature for nonprofit and civic organizations is found in Section 1702.327, which applies specifically to nonprofit and civic organizations that employ peace officers under certain circumstances and would not be applicable here.

However, there is one exception to licensing under Chapter 1702 provided by the legislature that could arguably apply, which can be found in section 1702.323 (“Security department of Private Business”). This exception would allow volunteers to provide security services exclusively for one church, as long as they do not carry firearms and as long as they do not wear “a uniform with any type of badge commonly associated with security personnel or law enforcement or a patch or apparel with ‘security’ on the patch or apparel.” See Tex. Occ. Code §1702.323(a) & (d)(2). Thus, the wearing of a uniform or any apparel containing the word “security” would subject them to the licensing requirements of the act.

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/RSD/PSB/La ... in_sum.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Church Volunteer Security Groups

#112

Post by gugisman » Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:51 am

I'm new to this board, and here because I wanted to serve as a part time volunteer in church security operations, and I am seldom not armed. Just two weeks ago we were told that only active, full time peace officers could be on the team - if they were to be armed, or, persons who comply with TX Occupations Code regarding private security.

Apparently, as a result of the May 10, 2007 DPS opinion (in Mr. Cotton's link, above) most of the volunteers (retired state and federal officers) could not legally 'carry' and be on the team. I did the research and wrote to my state representatives to support the bills mentioned in previous posts. However, I think there has been a lot of unwarranted disruption. Please hear me out...

First, regarding the DPS May 10, 2007 opinion: It should be taken as an 'advisory guideline', per the included preface: "These opinions are advisory guidelines intended to inform the public and the regulated community of the department’s position and to facilitate voluntary compliance. They are not binding on the department or any other law enforcement agency, and should not be relied on as authority in support of or defense against any enforcement action. They are subject to modification at the department’s discretion."

I'll try to not get to convoluted here... but I believe the TX Penal Code exempts many potential armed church security team volunteers.

TX Penal Code section 46.02 and 46.03 define what weapons are illegal, where it is illegal to carry, and certain defenses to prosecution (such as security officers, hunters, and so on). Section 1702 of the TX occupations code establishes a commission that regulates private security operations. Absent the defense granted to security officers in TXPC 46.03, it would be illegal for them to posses weapons under TXOC 1702.

TX Penal Code section 46.15 defines to whom the section 46.02 and 46.03 laws do NOT apply...

TXPC 46.15 - Nonapplicability, (a) sections 46.02 and 46.03 do not apply to:

(1) peace officers or special investigators under Article 2.122, Code of Criminal Procedure, and neither section prohibits a peace officer or special investigator from carrying a weapon in this state, including in an establishment in this state serving the public, regardless of whether the peace officer or special investigator is engaged in the actual discharge of the officer's or investigator's duties while carrying the weapon;

(certain other individuals in sections 2, 3, 4 7, 8, 9), and,

(5) an honorably retired peace officer or federal criminal investigator who holds a certificate of proficiency issued under Section 1701.357, Occupations Code, and is carrying a photo identification that:
(A) verifies that the officer honorably retired after not less than 15 years of service as a commissioned officer; and
(B) is issued by a state or local law enforcement agency;

Also, specifically related to security officers, TXPC 46.02 does not apply to a person who:

(4) holds a security officer commission issued by the Texas Private Security Board, if the person is engaged in the performance of the person's duties as an officer commissioned under Chapter 1702, Occupations Code, or is traveling to or from the person's place of assignment and is wearing the officer's uniform and carrying the officer's weapon in plain view;
(5) acts as a personal protection officer and carries the person's security officer commission and personal protection officer authorization, if the person:
(A) is engaged in the performance of the person's duties as a personal protection officer under Chapter 1702, Occupations Code, or is traveling to or from the person's place of assignment; and
(B) is either:
(i) wearing the uniform of a security officer, including any uniform or apparel described by Section 1702.323(d), Occupations Code, and carrying the officer's weapon in plain view; or
(ii) not wearing the uniform of a security officer and carrying the officer's weapon in a concealed manner;

CONCLUSION: It seems to me that a the cart has been brought forward of the horse... If active peace officers and honorably retired peace officers and federal criminal investigators are exempt from TXPC weapon law, then they are exempt from the TXOC 1702 related to security officers. Security officers are granted their 'authority' to carry weapons under TXPC by also being (partially) exempted under section 46.15

It is my opinion that TX peace officers and retired peace officers and federal criminal investigators (who comply with the proficiency requirements under TXOC 1701.357) - are acting within legal authority when he/she carries a concealed weapon in church, period. The issue of whether or not the person is involved, formally, as a volunteer member of a church security team is irrelevant.

I would appreciate hearing your comments/opinions/counter-opinions...?

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Excaliber
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Re: Church Volunteer Security Groups

#113

Post by Excaliber » Tue Aug 13, 2013 5:02 pm

gugisman wrote:I'm new to this board, and here because I wanted to serve as a part time volunteer in church security operations, and I am seldom not armed. Just two weeks ago we were told that only active, full time peace officers could be on the team - if they were to be armed, or, persons who comply with TX Occupations Code regarding private security.

Apparently, as a result of the May 10, 2007 DPS opinion (in Mr. Cotton's link, above) most of the volunteers (retired state and federal officers) could not legally 'carry' and be on the team. I did the research and wrote to my state representatives to support the bills mentioned in previous posts. However, I think there has been a lot of unwarranted disruption. Please hear me out...

First, regarding the DPS May 10, 2007 opinion: It should be taken as an 'advisory guideline', per the included preface: "These opinions are advisory guidelines intended to inform the public and the regulated community of the department’s position and to facilitate voluntary compliance. They are not binding on the department or any other law enforcement agency, and should not be relied on as authority in support of or defense against any enforcement action. They are subject to modification at the department’s discretion."

I'll try to not get to convoluted here... but I believe the TX Penal Code exempts many potential armed church security team volunteers.

TX Penal Code section 46.02 and 46.03 define what weapons are illegal, where it is illegal to carry, and certain defenses to prosecution (such as security officers, hunters, and so on). Section 1702 of the TX occupations code establishes a commission that regulates private security operations. Absent the defense granted to security officers in TXPC 46.03, it would be illegal for them to posses weapons under TXOC 1702.

TX Penal Code section 46.15 defines to whom the section 46.02 and 46.03 laws do NOT apply...

TXPC 46.15 - Nonapplicability, (a) sections 46.02 and 46.03 do not apply to:

(1) peace officers or special investigators under Article 2.122, Code of Criminal Procedure, and neither section prohibits a peace officer or special investigator from carrying a weapon in this state, including in an establishment in this state serving the public, regardless of whether the peace officer or special investigator is engaged in the actual discharge of the officer's or investigator's duties while carrying the weapon;

(certain other individuals in sections 2, 3, 4 7, 8, 9), and,

(5) an honorably retired peace officer or federal criminal investigator who holds a certificate of proficiency issued under Section 1701.357, Occupations Code, and is carrying a photo identification that:
(A) verifies that the officer honorably retired after not less than 15 years of service as a commissioned officer; and
(B) is issued by a state or local law enforcement agency;

Also, specifically related to security officers, TXPC 46.02 does not apply to a person who:

(4) holds a security officer commission issued by the Texas Private Security Board, if the person is engaged in the performance of the person's duties as an officer commissioned under Chapter 1702, Occupations Code, or is traveling to or from the person's place of assignment and is wearing the officer's uniform and carrying the officer's weapon in plain view;
(5) acts as a personal protection officer and carries the person's security officer commission and personal protection officer authorization, if the person:
(A) is engaged in the performance of the person's duties as a personal protection officer under Chapter 1702, Occupations Code, or is traveling to or from the person's place of assignment; and
(B) is either:
(i) wearing the uniform of a security officer, including any uniform or apparel described by Section 1702.323(d), Occupations Code, and carrying the officer's weapon in plain view; or
(ii) not wearing the uniform of a security officer and carrying the officer's weapon in a concealed manner;

CONCLUSION: It seems to me that a the cart has been brought forward of the horse... If active peace officers and honorably retired peace officers and federal criminal investigators are exempt from TXPC weapon law, then they are exempt from the TXOC 1702 related to security officers. Security officers are granted their 'authority' to carry weapons under TXPC by also being (partially) exempted under section 46.15

It is my opinion that TX peace officers and retired peace officers and federal criminal investigators (who comply with the proficiency requirements under TXOC 1701.357) - are acting within legal authority when he/she carries a concealed weapon in church, period. The issue of whether or not the person is involved, formally, as a volunteer member of a church security team is irrelevant.

I would appreciate hearing your comments/opinions/counter-opinions...?
Disregarding an advisory opinion from the attorney for the Private Security Bureau is not recommended. Although it has no force of law, it is a pretty good indication of how the PSB looks at the activity in question and whether or not they will be inclined to take enforcement action.

I am not a lawyer but I have studied these issues for several years. The following is not a legal or professional opinion, but the understanding I have arrived at after much research for my own business activities and in the interests of clients. Take it for what it's worth - just about what you paid for it.

Section 1702 Occupations Code regulates anyone who engages in security services, separate and apart from the TPC which regulates who can lawfully carry a firearm in the state.

A CHL holder or retired officer who lawfully carries a firearm in church for his own protection is fine - unless he joins a security team where acts in a protective capacity without complying with the licensing requirements of OC 1702. Then he becomes subject to the criminal penalties under that law, not for carrying a firearm under his other license, but for acting in a security capacity without the required license for that activity.

An active duty police officer can act in a security capacity if he has the permission of his agency and is paid directly by the church for his work. If he performs the work in the employ of a security company, he too must comply with the licensing requirements.

If you have questions about how all this works, a conversation with one of the good folks at the DPS Private Security Bureau is highly recommended.
Excaliber

"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." - Jeff Cooper
I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of my posts should be construed as legal or professional advice.

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Re: Church Volunteer Security Groups

#114

Post by RottenApple » Tue Aug 13, 2013 5:05 pm

gugisman wrote:I'm new to this board, and here because I wanted to serve as a part time volunteer in church security operations, and I am seldom not armed. Just two weeks ago we were told that only active, full time peace officers could be on the team - if they were to be armed, or, persons who comply with TX Occupations Code regarding private security.

Apparently, as a result of the May 10, 2007 DPS opinion (in Mr. Cotton's link, above) most of the volunteers (retired state and federal officers) could not legally 'carry' and be on the team. I did the research and wrote to my state representatives to support the bills mentioned in previous posts. However, I think there has been a lot of unwarranted disruption. Please hear me out...

First, regarding the DPS May 10, 2007 opinion: It should be taken as an 'advisory guideline', per the included preface: "These opinions are advisory guidelines intended to inform the public and the regulated community of the department’s position and to facilitate voluntary compliance. They are not binding on the department or any other law enforcement agency, and should not be relied on as authority in support of or defense against any enforcement action. They are subject to modification at the department’s discretion."

I'll try to not get to convoluted here... but I believe the TX Penal Code exempts many potential armed church security team volunteers.

TX Penal Code section 46.02 and 46.03 define what weapons are illegal, where it is illegal to carry, and certain defenses to prosecution (such as security officers, hunters, and so on). Section 1702 of the TX occupations code establishes a commission that regulates private security operations. Absent the defense granted to security officers in TXPC 46.03, it would be illegal for them to posses weapons under TXOC 1702.

TX Penal Code section 46.15 defines to whom the section 46.02 and 46.03 laws do NOT apply...

TXPC 46.15 - Nonapplicability, (a) sections 46.02 and 46.03 do not apply to:

(1) peace officers or special investigators under Article 2.122, Code of Criminal Procedure, and neither section prohibits a peace officer or special investigator from carrying a weapon in this state, including in an establishment in this state serving the public, regardless of whether the peace officer or special investigator is engaged in the actual discharge of the officer's or investigator's duties while carrying the weapon;

(certain other individuals in sections 2, 3, 4 7, 8, 9), and,

(5) an honorably retired peace officer or federal criminal investigator who holds a certificate of proficiency issued under Section 1701.357, Occupations Code, and is carrying a photo identification that:
(A) verifies that the officer honorably retired after not less than 15 years of service as a commissioned officer; and
(B) is issued by a state or local law enforcement agency;

Also, specifically related to security officers, TXPC 46.02 does not apply to a person who:

(4) holds a security officer commission issued by the Texas Private Security Board, if the person is engaged in the performance of the person's duties as an officer commissioned under Chapter 1702, Occupations Code, or is traveling to or from the person's place of assignment and is wearing the officer's uniform and carrying the officer's weapon in plain view;
(5) acts as a personal protection officer and carries the person's security officer commission and personal protection officer authorization, if the person:
(A) is engaged in the performance of the person's duties as a personal protection officer under Chapter 1702, Occupations Code, or is traveling to or from the person's place of assignment; and
(B) is either:
(i) wearing the uniform of a security officer, including any uniform or apparel described by Section 1702.323(d), Occupations Code, and carrying the officer's weapon in plain view; or
(ii) not wearing the uniform of a security officer and carrying the officer's weapon in a concealed manner;

CONCLUSION: It seems to me that a the cart has been brought forward of the horse... If active peace officers and honorably retired peace officers and federal criminal investigators are exempt from TXPC weapon law, then they are exempt from the TXOC 1702 related to security officers. Security officers are granted their 'authority' to carry weapons under TXPC by also being (partially) exempted under section 46.15

It is my opinion that TX peace officers and retired peace officers and federal criminal investigators (who comply with the proficiency requirements under TXOC 1701.357) - are acting within legal authority when he/she carries a concealed weapon in church, period. The issue of whether or not the person is involved, formally, as a volunteer member of a church security team is irrelevant.

I would appreciate hearing your comments/opinions/counter-opinions...?
Anyone who can legally carry a handgun (CHL, retired/off-duty) cop) can legally carry in a church unless its posted 30.06. The issue under discussion in this thread is that CHL holders can not legally carry if they are part of a church security team.


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Re: Church Volunteer Security Groups

#115

Post by Dori » Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:44 pm

RottenApple wrote:
gugisman wrote:I'm new to this board, and here because I wanted to serve as a part time volunteer in church security operations, and I am seldom not armed. Just two weeks ago we were told that only active, full time peace officers could be on the team - if they were to be armed, or, persons who comply with TX Occupations Code regarding private security.

Apparently, as a result of the May 10, 2007 DPS opinion (in Mr. Cotton's link, above) most of the volunteers (retired state and federal officers) could not legally 'carry' and be on the team. I did the research and wrote to my state representatives to support the bills mentioned in previous posts. However, I think there has been a lot of unwarranted disruption. Please hear me out...

First, regarding the DPS May 10, 2007 opinion: It should be taken as an 'advisory guideline', per the included preface: "These opinions are advisory guidelines intended to inform the public and the regulated community of the department’s position and to facilitate voluntary compliance. They are not binding on the department or any other law enforcement agency, and should not be relied on as authority in support of or defense against any enforcement action. They are subject to modification at the department’s discretion."

I'll try to not get to convoluted here... but I believe the TX Penal Code exempts many potential armed church security team volunteers.

TX Penal Code section 46.02 and 46.03 define what weapons are illegal, where it is illegal to carry, and certain defenses to prosecution (such as security officers, hunters, and so on). Section 1702 of the TX occupations code establishes a commission that regulates private security operations. Absent the defense granted to security officers in TXPC 46.03, it would be illegal for them to posses weapons under TXOC 1702.

TX Penal Code section 46.15 defines to whom the section 46.02 and 46.03 laws do NOT apply...

TXPC 46.15 - Nonapplicability, (a) sections 46.02 and 46.03 do not apply to:

(1) peace officers or special investigators under Article 2.122, Code of Criminal Procedure, and neither section prohibits a peace officer or special investigator from carrying a weapon in this state, including in an establishment in this state serving the public, regardless of whether the peace officer or special investigator is engaged in the actual discharge of the officer's or investigator's duties while carrying the weapon;

(certain other individuals in sections 2, 3, 4 7, 8, 9), and,

(5) an honorably retired peace officer or federal criminal investigator who holds a certificate of proficiency issued under Section 1701.357, Occupations Code, and is carrying a photo identification that:
(A) verifies that the officer honorably retired after not less than 15 years of service as a commissioned officer; and
(B) is issued by a state or local law enforcement agency;

Also, specifically related to security officers, TXPC 46.02 does not apply to a person who:

(4) holds a security officer commission issued by the Texas Private Security Board, if the person is engaged in the performance of the person's duties as an officer commissioned under Chapter 1702, Occupations Code, or is traveling to or from the person's place of assignment and is wearing the officer's uniform and carrying the officer's weapon in plain view;
(5) acts as a personal protection officer and carries the person's security officer commission and personal protection officer authorization, if the person:
(A) is engaged in the performance of the person's duties as a personal protection officer under Chapter 1702, Occupations Code, or is traveling to or from the person's place of assignment; and
(B) is either:
(i) wearing the uniform of a security officer, including any uniform or apparel described by Section 1702.323(d), Occupations Code, and carrying the officer's weapon in plain view; or
(ii) not wearing the uniform of a security officer and carrying the officer's weapon in a concealed manner;

CONCLUSION: It seems to me that a the cart has been brought forward of the horse... If active peace officers and honorably retired peace officers and federal criminal investigators are exempt from TXPC weapon law, then they are exempt from the TXOC 1702 related to security officers. Security officers are granted their 'authority' to carry weapons under TXPC by also being (partially) exempted under section 46.15

It is my opinion that TX peace officers and retired peace officers and federal criminal investigators (who comply with the proficiency requirements under TXOC 1701.357) - are acting within legal authority when he/she carries a concealed weapon in church, period. The issue of whether or not the person is involved, formally, as a volunteer member of a church security team is irrelevant.

I would appreciate hearing your comments/opinions/counter-opinions...?
Anyone who can legally carry a handgun (CHL, retired/off-duty) cop) can legally carry in a church unless its posted 30.06. The issue under discussion in this thread is that CHL holders can not legally carry if they are part of a church security team.
If somebody wants to be security they need to follow the law and PSB rules.

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Re: Church Volunteer Security Groups

#116

Post by jmra » Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:19 pm

Dori wrote:
RottenApple wrote:
gugisman wrote:I'm new to this board, and here because I wanted to serve as a part time volunteer in church security operations, and I am seldom not armed. Just two weeks ago we were told that only active, full time peace officers could be on the team - if they were to be armed, or, persons who comply with TX Occupations Code regarding private security.

Apparently, as a result of the May 10, 2007 DPS opinion (in Mr. Cotton's link, above) most of the volunteers (retired state and federal officers) could not legally 'carry' and be on the team. I did the research and wrote to my state representatives to support the bills mentioned in previous posts. However, I think there has been a lot of unwarranted disruption. Please hear me out...

First, regarding the DPS May 10, 2007 opinion: It should be taken as an 'advisory guideline', per the included preface: "These opinions are advisory guidelines intended to inform the public and the regulated community of the department’s position and to facilitate voluntary compliance. They are not binding on the department or any other law enforcement agency, and should not be relied on as authority in support of or defense against any enforcement action. They are subject to modification at the department’s discretion."

I'll try to not get to convoluted here... but I believe the TX Penal Code exempts many potential armed church security team volunteers.

TX Penal Code section 46.02 and 46.03 define what weapons are illegal, where it is illegal to carry, and certain defenses to prosecution (such as security officers, hunters, and so on). Section 1702 of the TX occupations code establishes a commission that regulates private security operations. Absent the defense granted to security officers in TXPC 46.03, it would be illegal for them to posses weapons under TXOC 1702.

TX Penal Code section 46.15 defines to whom the section 46.02 and 46.03 laws do NOT apply...

TXPC 46.15 - Nonapplicability, (a) sections 46.02 and 46.03 do not apply to:

(1) peace officers or special investigators under Article 2.122, Code of Criminal Procedure, and neither section prohibits a peace officer or special investigator from carrying a weapon in this state, including in an establishment in this state serving the public, regardless of whether the peace officer or special investigator is engaged in the actual discharge of the officer's or investigator's duties while carrying the weapon;

(certain other individuals in sections 2, 3, 4 7, 8, 9), and,

(5) an honorably retired peace officer or federal criminal investigator who holds a certificate of proficiency issued under Section 1701.357, Occupations Code, and is carrying a photo identification that:
(A) verifies that the officer honorably retired after not less than 15 years of service as a commissioned officer; and
(B) is issued by a state or local law enforcement agency;

Also, specifically related to security officers, TXPC 46.02 does not apply to a person who:

(4) holds a security officer commission issued by the Texas Private Security Board, if the person is engaged in the performance of the person's duties as an officer commissioned under Chapter 1702, Occupations Code, or is traveling to or from the person's place of assignment and is wearing the officer's uniform and carrying the officer's weapon in plain view;
(5) acts as a personal protection officer and carries the person's security officer commission and personal protection officer authorization, if the person:
(A) is engaged in the performance of the person's duties as a personal protection officer under Chapter 1702, Occupations Code, or is traveling to or from the person's place of assignment; and
(B) is either:
(i) wearing the uniform of a security officer, including any uniform or apparel described by Section 1702.323(d), Occupations Code, and carrying the officer's weapon in plain view; or
(ii) not wearing the uniform of a security officer and carrying the officer's weapon in a concealed manner;

CONCLUSION: It seems to me that a the cart has been brought forward of the horse... If active peace officers and honorably retired peace officers and federal criminal investigators are exempt from TXPC weapon law, then they are exempt from the TXOC 1702 related to security officers. Security officers are granted their 'authority' to carry weapons under TXPC by also being (partially) exempted under section 46.15

It is my opinion that TX peace officers and retired peace officers and federal criminal investigators (who comply with the proficiency requirements under TXOC 1701.357) - are acting within legal authority when he/she carries a concealed weapon in church, period. The issue of whether or not the person is involved, formally, as a volunteer member of a church security team is irrelevant.

I would appreciate hearing your comments/opinions/counter-opinions...?
Anyone who can legally carry a handgun (CHL, retired/off-duty) cop) can legally carry in a church unless its posted 30.06. The issue under discussion in this thread is that CHL holders can not legally carry if they are part of a church security team.
If somebody wants to be security they need to follow the law and PSB rules.
The problem is the "law" that you are referring to affects many more people than just those who "want to be security". It affects just about every volunteer in a church who happens to carry, from greeters to people helping others find parking spaces in the parking lot. Do some reading about this subject on the forum and then tell us if you feel the same way.
You might also be interested in researching how many church volunteers (security or otherwise) have been prosecuted under these codes.
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Re: Church Volunteer Security Groups

#117

Post by texanjoker » Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:40 pm

jmra wrote:
Dori wrote:
RottenApple wrote:
gugisman wrote:I'm new to this board, and here because I wanted to serve as a part time volunteer in church security operations, and I am seldom not armed. Just two weeks ago we were told that only active, full time peace officers could be on the team - if they were to be armed, or, persons who comply with TX Occupations Code regarding private security.

Apparently, as a result of the May 10, 2007 DPS opinion (in Mr. Cotton's link, above) most of the volunteers (retired state and federal officers) could not legally 'carry' and be on the team. I did the research and wrote to my state representatives to support the bills mentioned in previous posts. However, I think there has been a lot of unwarranted disruption. Please hear me out...

First, regarding the DPS May 10, 2007 opinion: It should be taken as an 'advisory guideline', per the included preface: "These opinions are advisory guidelines intended to inform the public and the regulated community of the department’s position and to facilitate voluntary compliance. They are not binding on the department or any other law enforcement agency, and should not be relied on as authority in support of or defense against any enforcement action. They are subject to modification at the department’s discretion."

I'll try to not get to convoluted here... but I believe the TX Penal Code exempts many potential armed church security team volunteers.

TX Penal Code section 46.02 and 46.03 define what weapons are illegal, where it is illegal to carry, and certain defenses to prosecution (such as security officers, hunters, and so on). Section 1702 of the TX occupations code establishes a commission that regulates private security operations. Absent the defense granted to security officers in TXPC 46.03, it would be illegal for them to posses weapons under TXOC 1702.

TX Penal Code section 46.15 defines to whom the section 46.02 and 46.03 laws do NOT apply...

TXPC 46.15 - Nonapplicability, (a) sections 46.02 and 46.03 do not apply to:

(1) peace officers or special investigators under Article 2.122, Code of Criminal Procedure, and neither section prohibits a peace officer or special investigator from carrying a weapon in this state, including in an establishment in this state serving the public, regardless of whether the peace officer or special investigator is engaged in the actual discharge of the officer's or investigator's duties while carrying the weapon;

(certain other individuals in sections 2, 3, 4 7, 8, 9), and,

(5) an honorably retired peace officer or federal criminal investigator who holds a certificate of proficiency issued under Section 1701.357, Occupations Code, and is carrying a photo identification that:
(A) verifies that the officer honorably retired after not less than 15 years of service as a commissioned officer; and
(B) is issued by a state or local law enforcement agency;

Also, specifically related to security officers, TXPC 46.02 does not apply to a person who:

(4) holds a security officer commission issued by the Texas Private Security Board, if the person is engaged in the performance of the person's duties as an officer commissioned under Chapter 1702, Occupations Code, or is traveling to or from the person's place of assignment and is wearing the officer's uniform and carrying the officer's weapon in plain view;
(5) acts as a personal protection officer and carries the person's security officer commission and personal protection officer authorization, if the person:
(A) is engaged in the performance of the person's duties as a personal protection officer under Chapter 1702, Occupations Code, or is traveling to or from the person's place of assignment; and
(B) is either:
(i) wearing the uniform of a security officer, including any uniform or apparel described by Section 1702.323(d), Occupations Code, and carrying the officer's weapon in plain view; or
(ii) not wearing the uniform of a security officer and carrying the officer's weapon in a concealed manner;

CONCLUSION: It seems to me that a the cart has been brought forward of the horse... If active peace officers and honorably retired peace officers and federal criminal investigators are exempt from TXPC weapon law, then they are exempt from the TXOC 1702 related to security officers. Security officers are granted their 'authority' to carry weapons under TXPC by also being (partially) exempted under section 46.15

It is my opinion that TX peace officers and retired peace officers and federal criminal investigators (who comply with the proficiency requirements under TXOC 1701.357) - are acting within legal authority when he/she carries a concealed weapon in church, period. The issue of whether or not the person is involved, formally, as a volunteer member of a church security team is irrelevant.

I would appreciate hearing your comments/opinions/counter-opinions...?
Anyone who can legally carry a handgun (CHL, retired/off-duty) cop) can legally carry in a church unless its posted 30.06. The issue under discussion in this thread is that CHL holders can not legally carry if they are part of a church security team.
If somebody wants to be security they need to follow the law and PSB rules.
The problem is the "law" that you are referring to affects many more people than just those who "want to be security". It affects just about every volunteer in a church who happens to carry, from greeters to people helping others find parking spaces in the parking lot. Do some reading about this subject on the forum and then tell us if you feel the same way.
You might also be interested in researching how many church volunteers (security or otherwise) have been prosecuted under these codes.

If a regular volunteer is there to volunteer in a non security roll and is armed with a chl, he doesn't fall under the security regulations. He only falls under if he is working in a security capacity.

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jmra
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 14
Posts: 10334
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:51 am
Location: Ellis County

Re: Church Volunteer Security Groups

#118

Post by jmra » Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:30 pm

texanjoker wrote:
jmra wrote:
Dori wrote:
RottenApple wrote:
gugisman wrote:I'm new to this board, and here because I wanted to serve as a part time volunteer in church security operations, and I am seldom not armed. Just two weeks ago we were told that only active, full time peace officers could be on the team - if they were to be armed, or, persons who comply with TX Occupations Code regarding private security.

Apparently, as a result of the May 10, 2007 DPS opinion (in Mr. Cotton's link, above) most of the volunteers (retired state and federal officers) could not legally 'carry' and be on the team. I did the research and wrote to my state representatives to support the bills mentioned in previous posts. However, I think there has been a lot of unwarranted disruption. Please hear me out...

First, regarding the DPS May 10, 2007 opinion: It should be taken as an 'advisory guideline', per the included preface: "These opinions are advisory guidelines intended to inform the public and the regulated community of the department’s position and to facilitate voluntary compliance. They are not binding on the department or any other law enforcement agency, and should not be relied on as authority in support of or defense against any enforcement action. They are subject to modification at the department’s discretion."

I'll try to not get to convoluted here... but I believe the TX Penal Code exempts many potential armed church security team volunteers.

TX Penal Code section 46.02 and 46.03 define what weapons are illegal, where it is illegal to carry, and certain defenses to prosecution (such as security officers, hunters, and so on). Section 1702 of the TX occupations code establishes a commission that regulates private security operations. Absent the defense granted to security officers in TXPC 46.03, it would be illegal for them to posses weapons under TXOC 1702.

TX Penal Code section 46.15 defines to whom the section 46.02 and 46.03 laws do NOT apply...

TXPC 46.15 - Nonapplicability, (a) sections 46.02 and 46.03 do not apply to:

(1) peace officers or special investigators under Article 2.122, Code of Criminal Procedure, and neither section prohibits a peace officer or special investigator from carrying a weapon in this state, including in an establishment in this state serving the public, regardless of whether the peace officer or special investigator is engaged in the actual discharge of the officer's or investigator's duties while carrying the weapon;

(certain other individuals in sections 2, 3, 4 7, 8, 9), and,

(5) an honorably retired peace officer or federal criminal investigator who holds a certificate of proficiency issued under Section 1701.357, Occupations Code, and is carrying a photo identification that:
(A) verifies that the officer honorably retired after not less than 15 years of service as a commissioned officer; and
(B) is issued by a state or local law enforcement agency;

Also, specifically related to security officers, TXPC 46.02 does not apply to a person who:

(4) holds a security officer commission issued by the Texas Private Security Board, if the person is engaged in the performance of the person's duties as an officer commissioned under Chapter 1702, Occupations Code, or is traveling to or from the person's place of assignment and is wearing the officer's uniform and carrying the officer's weapon in plain view;
(5) acts as a personal protection officer and carries the person's security officer commission and personal protection officer authorization, if the person:
(A) is engaged in the performance of the person's duties as a personal protection officer under Chapter 1702, Occupations Code, or is traveling to or from the person's place of assignment; and
(B) is either:
(i) wearing the uniform of a security officer, including any uniform or apparel described by Section 1702.323(d), Occupations Code, and carrying the officer's weapon in plain view; or
(ii) not wearing the uniform of a security officer and carrying the officer's weapon in a concealed manner;

CONCLUSION: It seems to me that a the cart has been brought forward of the horse... If active peace officers and honorably retired peace officers and federal criminal investigators are exempt from TXPC weapon law, then they are exempt from the TXOC 1702 related to security officers. Security officers are granted their 'authority' to carry weapons under TXPC by also being (partially) exempted under section 46.15

It is my opinion that TX peace officers and retired peace officers and federal criminal investigators (who comply with the proficiency requirements under TXOC 1701.357) - are acting within legal authority when he/she carries a concealed weapon in church, period. The issue of whether or not the person is involved, formally, as a volunteer member of a church security team is irrelevant.

I would appreciate hearing your comments/opinions/counter-opinions...?
Anyone who can legally carry a handgun (CHL, retired/off-duty) cop) can legally carry in a church unless its posted 30.06. The issue under discussion in this thread is that CHL holders can not legally carry if they are part of a church security team.
If somebody wants to be security they need to follow the law and PSB rules.
The problem is the "law" that you are referring to affects many more people than just those who "want to be security". It affects just about every volunteer in a church who happens to carry, from greeters to people helping others find parking spaces in the parking lot. Do some reading about this subject on the forum and then tell us if you feel the same way.
You might also be interested in researching how many church volunteers (security or otherwise) have been prosecuted under these codes.

If a regular volunteer is there to clean the toilets and is armed with a chl, he doesn't fall under the security regulations. He only falls under if he is working in a security capacity.
Don't believe I mentioned toilet cleaners. But I believe you know what I meant. Anyone involved in directing people would/could fall under this code. It is a bad law that was passed solely to pad the pockets of security companies and off duty LEOs.
Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid.
John Wayne
NRA Lifetime member

User avatar

texanjoker
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 11
Posts: 2720
Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:18 pm

Re: Church Volunteer Security Groups

#119

Post by texanjoker » Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:36 pm

jmra wrote:
texanjoker wrote:
jmra wrote:
Dori wrote:
RottenApple wrote:
gugisman wrote:I'm new to this board, and here because I wanted to serve as a part time volunteer in church security operations, and I am seldom not armed. Just two weeks ago we were told that only active, full time peace officers could be on the team - if they were to be armed, or, persons who comply with TX Occupations Code regarding private security.

Apparently, as a result of the May 10, 2007 DPS opinion (in Mr. Cotton's link, above) most of the volunteers (retired state and federal officers) could not legally 'carry' and be on the team. I did the research and wrote to my state representatives to support the bills mentioned in previous posts. However, I think there has been a lot of unwarranted disruption. Please hear me out...

First, regarding the DPS May 10, 2007 opinion: It should be taken as an 'advisory guideline', per the included preface: "These opinions are advisory guidelines intended to inform the public and the regulated community of the department’s position and to facilitate voluntary compliance. They are not binding on the department or any other law enforcement agency, and should not be relied on as authority in support of or defense against any enforcement action. They are subject to modification at the department’s discretion."

I'll try to not get to convoluted here... but I believe the TX Penal Code exempts many potential armed church security team volunteers.

TX Penal Code section 46.02 and 46.03 define what weapons are illegal, where it is illegal to carry, and certain defenses to prosecution (such as security officers, hunters, and so on). Section 1702 of the TX occupations code establishes a commission that regulates private security operations. Absent the defense granted to security officers in TXPC 46.03, it would be illegal for them to posses weapons under TXOC 1702.

TX Penal Code section 46.15 defines to whom the section 46.02 and 46.03 laws do NOT apply...

TXPC 46.15 - Nonapplicability, (a) sections 46.02 and 46.03 do not apply to:

(1) peace officers or special investigators under Article 2.122, Code of Criminal Procedure, and neither section prohibits a peace officer or special investigator from carrying a weapon in this state, including in an establishment in this state serving the public, regardless of whether the peace officer or special investigator is engaged in the actual discharge of the officer's or investigator's duties while carrying the weapon;

(certain other individuals in sections 2, 3, 4 7, 8, 9), and,

(5) an honorably retired peace officer or federal criminal investigator who holds a certificate of proficiency issued under Section 1701.357, Occupations Code, and is carrying a photo identification that:
(A) verifies that the officer honorably retired after not less than 15 years of service as a commissioned officer; and
(B) is issued by a state or local law enforcement agency;

Also, specifically related to security officers, TXPC 46.02 does not apply to a person who:

(4) holds a security officer commission issued by the Texas Private Security Board, if the person is engaged in the performance of the person's duties as an officer commissioned under Chapter 1702, Occupations Code, or is traveling to or from the person's place of assignment and is wearing the officer's uniform and carrying the officer's weapon in plain view;
(5) acts as a personal protection officer and carries the person's security officer commission and personal protection officer authorization, if the person:
(A) is engaged in the performance of the person's duties as a personal protection officer under Chapter 1702, Occupations Code, or is traveling to or from the person's place of assignment; and
(B) is either:
(i) wearing the uniform of a security officer, including any uniform or apparel described by Section 1702.323(d), Occupations Code, and carrying the officer's weapon in plain view; or
(ii) not wearing the uniform of a security officer and carrying the officer's weapon in a concealed manner;

CONCLUSION: It seems to me that a the cart has been brought forward of the horse... If active peace officers and honorably retired peace officers and federal criminal investigators are exempt from TXPC weapon law, then they are exempt from the TXOC 1702 related to security officers. Security officers are granted their 'authority' to carry weapons under TXPC by also being (partially) exempted under section 46.15

It is my opinion that TX peace officers and retired peace officers and federal criminal investigators (who comply with the proficiency requirements under TXOC 1701.357) - are acting within legal authority when he/she carries a concealed weapon in church, period. The issue of whether or not the person is involved, formally, as a volunteer member of a church security team is irrelevant.

I would appreciate hearing your comments/opinions/counter-opinions...?
Anyone who can legally carry a handgun (CHL, retired/off-duty) cop) can legally carry in a church unless its posted 30.06. The issue under discussion in this thread is that CHL holders can not legally carry if they are part of a church security team.
If somebody wants to be security they need to follow the law and PSB rules.
The problem is the "law" that you are referring to affects many more people than just those who "want to be security". It affects just about every volunteer in a church who happens to carry, from greeters to people helping others find parking spaces in the parking lot. Do some reading about this subject on the forum and then tell us if you feel the same way.
You might also be interested in researching how many church volunteers (security or otherwise) have been prosecuted under these codes.

If a regular volunteer is there to clean the toilets and is armed with a chl, he doesn't fall under the security regulations. He only falls under if he is working in a security capacity.
Don't believe I mentioned toilet cleaners. But I believe you know what I meant. Anyone involved in directing people would/could fall under this code. It is a bad law that was passed solely to pad the pockets of security companies and off duty LEOs.

I dont agree that a non security volunteer needs a card. When they try to do security and circumvent the regulations are when problems arise. A person working for a company is covered by their insurance should something go wrong. A church could apply for a company license, carry insurance and them commission their own guards. Heck this law may pad securoty agencies but i did pay 110 bucks for my cards with no fee waiver for being a leo so i can see companys fighting this. It is also tragic that churchs need armed protection.

User avatar

jmra
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 14
Posts: 10334
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:51 am
Location: Ellis County

Re: Church Volunteer Security Groups

#120

Post by jmra » Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:54 pm

texanjoker wrote:
jmra wrote:
texanjoker wrote:
jmra wrote:
Dori wrote:
RottenApple wrote:
gugisman wrote:I'm new to this board, and here because I wanted to serve as a part time volunteer in church security operations, and I am seldom not armed. Just two weeks ago we were told that only active, full time peace officers could be on the team - if they were to be armed, or, persons who comply with TX Occupations Code regarding private security.

Apparently, as a result of the May 10, 2007 DPS opinion (in Mr. Cotton's link, above) most of the volunteers (retired state and federal officers) could not legally 'carry' and be on the team. I did the research and wrote to my state representatives to support the bills mentioned in previous posts. However, I think there has been a lot of unwarranted disruption. Please hear me out...

First, regarding the DPS May 10, 2007 opinion: It should be taken as an 'advisory guideline', per the included preface: "These opinions are advisory guidelines intended to inform the public and the regulated community of the department’s position and to facilitate voluntary compliance. They are not binding on the department or any other law enforcement agency, and should not be relied on as authority in support of or defense against any enforcement action. They are subject to modification at the department’s discretion."

I'll try to not get to convoluted here... but I believe the TX Penal Code exempts many potential armed church security team volunteers.

TX Penal Code section 46.02 and 46.03 define what weapons are illegal, where it is illegal to carry, and certain defenses to prosecution (such as security officers, hunters, and so on). Section 1702 of the TX occupations code establishes a commission that regulates private security operations. Absent the defense granted to security officers in TXPC 46.03, it would be illegal for them to posses weapons under TXOC 1702.

TX Penal Code section 46.15 defines to whom the section 46.02 and 46.03 laws do NOT apply...

TXPC 46.15 - Nonapplicability, (a) sections 46.02 and 46.03 do not apply to:

(1) peace officers or special investigators under Article 2.122, Code of Criminal Procedure, and neither section prohibits a peace officer or special investigator from carrying a weapon in this state, including in an establishment in this state serving the public, regardless of whether the peace officer or special investigator is engaged in the actual discharge of the officer's or investigator's duties while carrying the weapon;

(certain other individuals in sections 2, 3, 4 7, 8, 9), and,

(5) an honorably retired peace officer or federal criminal investigator who holds a certificate of proficiency issued under Section 1701.357, Occupations Code, and is carrying a photo identification that:
(A) verifies that the officer honorably retired after not less than 15 years of service as a commissioned officer; and
(B) is issued by a state or local law enforcement agency;

Also, specifically related to security officers, TXPC 46.02 does not apply to a person who:

(4) holds a security officer commission issued by the Texas Private Security Board, if the person is engaged in the performance of the person's duties as an officer commissioned under Chapter 1702, Occupations Code, or is traveling to or from the person's place of assignment and is wearing the officer's uniform and carrying the officer's weapon in plain view;
(5) acts as a personal protection officer and carries the person's security officer commission and personal protection officer authorization, if the person:
(A) is engaged in the performance of the person's duties as a personal protection officer under Chapter 1702, Occupations Code, or is traveling to or from the person's place of assignment; and
(B) is either:
(i) wearing the uniform of a security officer, including any uniform or apparel described by Section 1702.323(d), Occupations Code, and carrying the officer's weapon in plain view; or
(ii) not wearing the uniform of a security officer and carrying the officer's weapon in a concealed manner;

CONCLUSION: It seems to me that a the cart has been brought forward of the horse... If active peace officers and honorably retired peace officers and federal criminal investigators are exempt from TXPC weapon law, then they are exempt from the TXOC 1702 related to security officers. Security officers are granted their 'authority' to carry weapons under TXPC by also being (partially) exempted under section 46.15

It is my opinion that TX peace officers and retired peace officers and federal criminal investigators (who comply with the proficiency requirements under TXOC 1701.357) - are acting within legal authority when he/she carries a concealed weapon in church, period. The issue of whether or not the person is involved, formally, as a volunteer member of a church security team is irrelevant.

I would appreciate hearing your comments/opinions/counter-opinions...?
Anyone who can legally carry a handgun (CHL, retired/off-duty) cop) can legally carry in a church unless its posted 30.06. The issue under discussion in this thread is that CHL holders can not legally carry if they are part of a church security team.
If somebody wants to be security they need to follow the law and PSB rules.
The problem is the "law" that you are referring to affects many more people than just those who "want to be security". It affects just about every volunteer in a church who happens to carry, from greeters to people helping others find parking spaces in the parking lot. Do some reading about this subject on the forum and then tell us if you feel the same way.
You might also be interested in researching how many church volunteers (security or otherwise) have been prosecuted under these codes.

If a regular volunteer is there to clean the toilets and is armed with a chl, he doesn't fall under the security regulations. He only falls under if he is working in a security capacity.
Don't believe I mentioned toilet cleaners. But I believe you know what I meant. Anyone involved in directing people would/could fall under this code. It is a bad law that was passed solely to pad the pockets of security companies and off duty LEOs.

I dont agree that a non security volunteer needs a card. When they try to do security and circumvent the regulations are when problems arise. A person working for a company is covered by their insurance should something go wrong. A church could apply for a company license, carry insurance and them commission their own guards. Heck this law may pad securoty agencies but i did pay 110 bucks for my cards with no fee waiver for being a leo so i can see companys fighting this. It is also tragic that churchs need armed protection.
After going back and looking at the code I do see where I was mistaking about greeters. However, the fact remains that the sole reason the original law passed was the lobbying by security companies and police unions to gain a revenue stream.
I see it at my church several times a week. Officers setting in chairs on their phones while people who actually have a vested interest in the security of the people in the church work diligently to ensure their safety.
This law, as it applies to churches and other not for profit organizations, is nothing more than an unethical sham.
Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid.
John Wayne
NRA Lifetime member

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