Medical Office Building

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carrydave
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Medical Office Building

#1

Post by carrydave » Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:10 pm

Hello, I work for a private Doctor who rents office space in a medical office building adjacent to a hospital (connected by a foot bridge).

On the employee foot bridge there is a properly posted 30.06 sign, however at the back entrance where the patients come in there is no such sign that i have seen (someone correct me and I'm going to investigate more tomorrow.

two things:

1 if its not posted AT ALL entrances i should be ok to carry

2. we rent office space,but are private. Is the landlord allowed to restrict carry in their building even to private tenants?

3. Would permission from my boss, as tenant and payee of rent in the office allow for carry, or do i have to have written permission from the building owner.

4. are 1-3 moot due to no signage at two main entrances?

Glad to be here.
dave


RPB
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Re: Medical Office Building

#2

Post by RPB » Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:28 pm

carrydave wrote:Hello, I work for a private Doctor who rents office space in a medical office building adjacent to a hospital (connected by a foot bridge).

On the employee foot bridge there is a properly posted 30.06 sign, however at the back entrance where the patients come in there is no such sign that i have seen (someone correct me and I'm going to investigate more tomorrow.

two things:

1 if its not posted AT ALL entrances i should be ok to carry = WRONG Nothing has to be posted at any entrance.
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... /PE.30.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Sec. 30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED HANDGUN. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:
1) carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, on property of another without effective consent; and

(2) received notice
<...>
(b) For purposes of this section, a person receives notice if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written communication.
<...>
(B) a sign posted on the property that:
(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.
2. we rent office space,but are private. Is the landlord allowed to restrict carry in their building even to private tenants? By whom is the property owned?
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... /PE.30.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Sec. 30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED HANDGUN. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:

(1) carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, on property of another without effective consent; and

(2) received notice that:
3. Would permission from my boss, as tenant and payee of rent in the office allow for carry, or do i have to have written permission from the building owner.
Are they the property OWNER who can give effective consent?
4. are 1-3 moot due to no signage at two main entrances?
See reply above. no sign needs to be at any entrance
Glad to be here.
dave
Last edited by RPB on Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RottenApple
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Re: Medical Office Building

#3

Post by RottenApple » Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:31 pm

carrydave wrote:Hello, I work for a private Doctor who rents office space in a medical office building adjacent to a hospital (connected by a foot bridge).

On the employee foot bridge there is a properly posted 30.06 sign, however at the back entrance where the patients come in there is no such sign that i have seen (someone correct me and I'm going to investigate more tomorrow.

two things:

1 if its not posted AT ALL entrances i should be ok to carry

2. we rent office space,but are private. Is the landlord allowed to restrict carry in their building even to private tenants?

3. Would permission from my boss, as tenant and payee of rent in the office allow for carry, or do i have to have written permission from the building owner.

4. are 1-3 moot due to no signage at two main entrances?

Glad to be here.
dave
1) 30.06 signage does not have to be posted at all entrances.

2 & 3) As for leasing space in a 30.06 posted building, I think that may be a gray area. I'm fairly certain that you could carry in your office (assuming you had permission from the boss/owner), but you would have to get through common areas not under control of the manager/owner.

4) No. See #1 above.


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Re: Medical Office Building

#4

Post by RPB » Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:33 pm

1) It's about the owner.. or someone acting on property owner's behalf
not your boss, a renter/lease etc

It's a "property owner rights/property rights thingy Notice the Statue says "owner" (or acting on owner's behalf/under the authority of owner) instead of, whoever may be leasing the property from an owner

2) Sign can be anywhere if it is clearly visible to Public/prominently displayed and otherwise fdulfills requirements of font size, contrast etc.
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JP171
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Re: Medical Office Building

#5

Post by JP171 » Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:57 pm

RPB wrote:1) It's about the owner.. or someone acting on property owner's behalf
not your boss, a renter/lease etc

It's a "property owner rights/property rights thingy Notice the Statue says "owner" (or acting on owner's behalf/under the authority of owner) instead of, whoever may be leasing the property from an owner

2) Sign can be anywhere if it is clearly visible to Public/prominently displayed and otherwise fdulfills requirements of font size, contrast etc.

actually no it is about the renter, if you rent a space no matter the use as long it is not a daily short term rental it is considered as being under your control, look up the renters laws. so the OP could carry in the office, but have to comply with the building owner outside the offices rented. when a property owner has space for lease under long term contract they give up the rights of occupation to the space rented governed by the lease and agreed upon terms.


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Re: Medical Office Building

#6

Post by RPB » Fri Mar 29, 2013 5:06 pm

JP171 wrote:
RPB wrote:1) It's about the owner.. or someone acting on property owner's behalf
not your boss, a renter/lease etc

It's a "property owner rights/property rights thingy Notice the Statue says "owner" (or acting on owner's behalf/under the authority of owner) instead of, whoever may be leasing the property from an owner

2) Sign can be anywhere if it is clearly visible to Public/prominently displayed and otherwise fdulfills requirements of font size, contrast etc.

actually no it is about the renter, if you rent a space no matter the use as long it is not a daily short term rental it is considered as being under your control, look up the renters laws. so the OP could carry in the office, but have to comply with the building owner outside the offices rented. when a property owner has space for lease under long term contract they give up the rights of occupation to the space rented governed by the lease and agreed upon terms.
look up the renters laws.
I was a Real Estate Salesman in 1978 or so; Broker from 1978-ish to 1990s, have a degree IN Real Estate, was pretty close friends with (Now Deceased) Judge and other Lawyer co-authored (Chuck, a Bellaire Lawyer - I lived there then- taught my Criminal Law Course at U of H) [Charles J. Jacobus] wrote the Real Estate Law Textbooks for all students, http://www.law.uh.edu/faculty/adjunct/c ... s-2013.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and I worked in a law office for over 25 years after they told me Law might pay even when Real Estate Markets flop,... I assume you mean the Property Code's, Landlord and Tenant laws?

Disagree due to language of the Statute
Where in the Statute does it say "under your control?

So ... I could rent a space in a Mall and since it is "under my control" I'll use it as a compost plant to stack decaying garbage there to later sell as fertilizer, creating a Nuisance for others?
====================

30.06 of the Penal Code is pretty clear as to who can consent and who can prohibit. The Owner or someone apparently acting under Owner's Authority.
It is for that reason that you can carry at the State Fair on Property OWNED by city of Dallas, but leased to some Fair peoples who would prefer to prohibit carry.
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... /PE.30.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner provides notice
The city of Dallas can not provide a 30.06 notice since State Law preempts municipalities, and since they have no right to post,. someone leasing from them can not post. A Tenant can't have more rights than the owner has, and an owner can't give what he does not have..... it's all about the Owner
Last edited by RPB on Fri Mar 29, 2013 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Medical Office Building

#7

Post by RottenApple » Fri Mar 29, 2013 5:31 pm

RPB wrote:
JP171 wrote:
RPB wrote:1) It's about the owner.. or someone acting on property owner's behalf
not your boss, a renter/lease etc

It's a "property owner rights/property rights thingy Notice the Statue says "owner" (or acting on owner's behalf/under the authority of owner) instead of, whoever may be leasing the property from an owner

2) Sign can be anywhere if it is clearly visible to Public/prominently displayed and otherwise fdulfills requirements of font size, contrast etc.

actually no it is about the renter, if you rent a space no matter the use as long it is not a daily short term rental it is considered as being under your control, look up the renters laws. so the OP could carry in the office, but have to comply with the building owner outside the offices rented. when a property owner has space for lease under long term contract they give up the rights of occupation to the space rented governed by the lease and agreed upon terms.
look up the renters laws.
I was a Real Estate Salesman in 1978 or so; Broker from 1978-ish to 1990s, have a degree IN Real Estate, was pretty close friends with (Now Deceased) Judge and other Lawyer co-authored (Chuck, a Bellaire Lawyer - I lived there then- taught my Criminal Law Course at U of H) [Charles J. Jacobus] http://www.law.uh.edu/faculty/adjunct/c ... s-2013.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; who wrote the Real Estate Law Textbooks for all students, and worked in a law office for over 25 years, I assume you mean the Property Code's, Landlord and Tenant laws?

Disagree due to language of the Statute
Where in the Statute does it say "under your control?

So ... I could rent a space in a Mall and since it is "under my control" I'll use it as a compost plant to stack decaying garbage there to later sell as fertilizer, creating a Nuisance for others?
====================

30.06 of the Penal Code is pretty clear as to who can consent and who can prohibit. The Owner or somaone apparently acting under Owner's Authority.
It is for that reason that you can carry at the State Fair on Property OWNED by city of Dallas, but leased to some Fair peoples who would prefer to prohibit carry.
Except that the person doesn't need to be a CHL to carry there (assuming permission is granted and the person, in this case the OP, is in control of the premises.
PC §46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the person is
not: (1) on the person's own premises or premises under the person's control; or
(2) inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle or watercraft that is owned by the person or under the person's control.
(a-1) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun in a motor vehicle or watercraft that is owned by the person or under the person's control at any time in which:
(1) the handgun is in plain view; or (2) the person is:
(A) engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic or boating;
(B) prohibited by law from possessing a firearm; or
71.01.(C) a member of a criminal street gang, as defined by Section
(a-2) For purposes of this section, “premises” includes real property and a recreational vehicle that is being used as living quarters, regardless of whether that use is temporary or permanent. In this subsection, “recreational vehicle” means a m otor vehicle primarily designed as temporary living quarters or a v ehicle that contains temporary living quarters and i s designed to be t owed by a motor vehicle. The term includes a travel trailer, camping trailer, truck camper, motor home, and horse trailer with living quarters.
So it comes down to what authority they are carrying under. And as Charles has explained numerous times, this is a gray area of the law. If the OP is outside the office and not in their vehicle, then they are carrying under their CHL. If outside the office and inside their vehicle, they are carrying under MPA (though still have obligation to display CHL if ID is requested by a LEO). If they are inside the office AND have effective control of the premises, then they are carrying under 46.02. If they don't have control over the office, however, then it's obviously illegal to carry.

Good grief this can get convoluted! Frankly, while I think it would be legal, I probably would not carry in the OP's situation.


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Re: Medical Office Building

#8

Post by RPB » Fri Mar 29, 2013 5:37 pm

:biggrinjester:
(assuming permission is granted and the person, in this case the OP, is in control of the premises.
Good points.

Problem seems to be getting inside of the leased space WITHHOUT passing through a hallway/ common area OWNED by anyone providing notice ... I'd ask for a ladder at my Window ... you know ... in case of fire :mrgreen:

Those situations like where a Justice of the Peace puts a Secretary's office in a building where the DPS/Tax office is in a conspiracy to prevent carrying in the building you normally could carry in on County property irritate me too
I probably would not carry in the OP's situation.
.... I probably would not get caught carrying in the OP's situation either
;-) (I Like how I worded that) I'd never do that which I thought was illegal, I'd absolutely carry at a College if it was decriminalized and the school had "rules" against it so that survivors of a mass shooting would be expelled...
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Re: Medical Office Building

#9

Post by RottenApple » Fri Mar 29, 2013 6:46 pm

RPB wrote::biggrinjester:
(assuming permission is granted and the person, in this case the OP, is in control of the premises.
Good points.

Problem seems to be getting inside of the leased space WITHHOUT passing through a hallway/ common area OWNED by anyone providing notice ... I'd ask for a ladder at my Window ... you know ... in case of fire :mrgreen:
I hear ya. Carry in the office? Sure! (Assuming what I posted above) But how do you GET to the office?!?! Well, if they have their own external exit, I guess it's not an issue. Hmmmm. I wonder if the traveling exception could come into play here.....
RPB wrote:Those situations like where a Justice of the Peace puts a Secretary's office in a building where the DPS/Tax office is in a conspiracy to prevent carrying in the building you normally could carry in on County property irritate me too.
:iagree: I've ran into a few of those recently. :mad5
RPB wrote:.... I probably would not get caught carrying in the OP's situation either
;-) (I Like how I worded that) I'd never do that which I thought was illegal, I'd absolutely carry at a College if it was decriminalized and the school had "rules" against it so that survivors of a mass shooting would be expelled...
:smilelol5: love it! I probably wouldn't get caught carrying either. Though I did have a somewhat embarrassing situation today..... I'll post it later in the Never Again section.

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Re: Medical Office Building

#10

Post by TexasGal » Fri Mar 29, 2013 10:27 pm

Would this hospital be a teaching hospital? Belonging to a University? If so and this hospital owns the building that is renting the space, this creates another problem.
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Re: Medical Office Building

#11

Post by carrydave » Sat Mar 30, 2013 8:25 am

TexasGal wrote:Would this hospital be a teaching hospital? Belonging to a University? If so and this hospital owns the building that is renting the space, this creates another problem.
GOLD STAR.

I did not think of that.....


this office (again not a hospital, but connected to a hospital by a footbridge) is actually a TEACHING OFFICE sometimes.

would a medical student on internship classify my entire workplace as a "school event" when a med student is present? one would think a third year medical student would not cause this.

Sorry about not knowing about signage at entrances, bad chl class i suppose.

the way in which they post the 30.06 sign is just where employees would see it. and in such a way that your good in the parking garage,but not in the hallways?

with all this muck, and mire i want to just give up and stick to a pepper blaster, but "what if" is all i can think about is being in a free fire zone ripe for a glory killer.

Thanks to everyone for the GREAT answers, and comments. I am learning a lot already (thats why I'm here),


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Re: Medical Office Building

#12

Post by RottenApple » Sat Mar 30, 2013 9:06 am

carrydave wrote:
TexasGal wrote:Would this hospital be a teaching hospital? Belonging to a University? If so and this hospital owns the building that is renting the space, this creates another problem.
GOLD STAR.

I did not think of that.....


this office (again not a hospital, but connected to a hospital by a footbridge) is actually a TEACHING OFFICE sometimes.

would a medical student on internship classify my entire workplace as a "school event" when a med student is present? one would think a third year medical student would not cause this.

Sorry about not knowing about signage at entrances, bad chl class i suppose.

the way in which they post the 30.06 sign is just where employees would see it. and in such a way that your good in the parking garage,but not in the hallways?

with all this muck, and mire i want to just give up and stick to a pepper blaster, but "what if" is all i can think about is being in a free fire zone ripe for a glory killer.

Thanks to everyone for the GREAT answers, and comments. I am learning a lot already (thats why I'm here),
Parking lots & garages are covered under the parking lot law, so you'd at least be able to store your gun in your car.

As for being a teaching office, not an issue unless its OWNED by an accredited teaching hospital. The teaching hospital issue is kinda weird. EVERY hospital has interns, residents, etc. So every hospital can be said to be a "teaching" hospital. IMO, what makes a hospital a true teaching hospital is that it is attached to a medical school. University Hospital in San Antonio or Baylor Dental College for examples.

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Re: Medical Office Building

#13

Post by fickman » Sat Mar 30, 2013 9:21 am

RPB wrote:Problem seems to be getting inside of the leased space WITHHOUT passing through a hallway/ common area OWNED by anyone providing notice ... I'd ask for a ladder at my Window ... you know ... in case of firee expelled...
In a similar thread, I recommended keeping a safe in the office with a carry gun stored inside. You could take the slide off the gun to get it from the car to the office the one time. . . then just saddle up when you get to work and disarm before leaving.

I feel free carrying in buildings where I haven't received notice. For instance, I use a handful of entrances at a certain mall and have never seen a sign, but I've read on here that they have some. I don't feel obligated to circumnavigate a building looking for notice. Same thing with the hospital where our kids were born. We always enter through the professional office building which is not posted and get to the hospital though the walking bridge which is not posted. In OP's scenario, I wouldn't risk it because it seems like he regularly passes past an entrance that is properly posted.
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Re: Medical Office Building

#14

Post by RPB » Sat Mar 30, 2013 9:34 am

fickman wrote:
RPB wrote:Problem seems to be getting inside of the leased space WITHHOUT passing through a hallway/ common area OWNED by anyone providing notice ... I'd ask for a ladder at my Window ... you know ... in case of firee ...
In a similar thread, I recommended keeping a safe in the office with a carry gun stored inside. You could take the slide off the gun to get it from the car to the office the one time. . . then just saddle up when you get to work and disarm before leaving.

I feel free carrying in buildings where I haven't received notice. For instance, I use a handful of entrances at a certain mall and have never seen a sign, but I've read on here that they have some. I don't feel obligated to circumnavigate a building looking for notice. Same thing with the hospital where our kids were born. We always enter through the professional office building which is not posted and get to the hospital though the walking bridge which is not posted. In OP's scenario, I wouldn't risk it because it seems like he regularly passes past an entrance that is properly posted.
Just carrying parts of a mechanical machine thingy?... no firearm/no handgun? Interesting; :headscratch especially if carried in 2 trips, slide part, and ... other parts.
carrydave wrote:
TexasGal wrote:Would this hospital be a teaching hospital? Belonging to a University? If so and this hospital owns the building that is renting the space, this creates another problem.
GOLD STAR.

I did not think of that.....


this office (again not a hospital, but connected to a hospital by a footbridge) is actually a TEACHING OFFICE sometimes.

would a medical student on internship classify my entire workplace as a "school event" when a med student is present? one would think a third year medical student would not cause this.

Sorry about not knowing about signage at entrances, bad chl class i suppose.

the way in which they post the 30.06 sign is just where employees would see it. and in such a way that your good in the parking garage,but not in the hallways?

with all this muck, and mire i want to just give up and stick to a pepper blaster, but "what if" is all i can think about is being in a free fire zone ripe for a glory killer.

Thanks to everyone for the GREAT answers, and comments. I am learning a lot already (thats why I'm here),
only where employees only can see it?

http://law.onecle.com/texas/penal/30.06.00.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(B) a sign posted on the property that:
(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.

(B) a sign posted on the property that:
(i) includes the language described by
Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;
(ii) appears in contrasting colors with
block letters at least one inch in height; and
(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner
clearly visible to the public.

=====================================================================
Silence Is Golden

[youtube][/youtube]
I'm no lawyer

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Re: Medical Office Building

#15

Post by carrydave » Sat Mar 30, 2013 4:47 pm

{quote}
only where employees only can see it?

http://law.onecle.com/texas/penal/30.06.00.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(B) a sign posted on the property that:
(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.

(B) a sign posted on the property that:
(i) includes the language described by
Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;
(ii) appears in contrasting colors with
block letters at least one inch in height; and
(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner
clearly visible to the public.

=====================================================================
Silence Is Golden

[youtube][/youtube][/quote]


actually not only is it only where an employee would see it, i have never seen it untill i took my chl class and became more aware. its not conspicuous. its on the inside of the left door frame, so only if you look to the side will you see it. I'll take a pic and post it here so you can see what i mean.


I'll add to the description here, The office building has a parking lot around it of course, this lot has a gate to get in, they make sure your parking to go see a tenant of the building and that you are not actually going to the hospital, or are an employee.

Across the street is a parking garage that is where the employees park. It's connected to the office building by a footbridge The steel frame where the footbridge is attached to the building is where the signs are posted, out of your general field of view, despite there being a perfectly good wall where the hall takes a turn that would be a better place to post the signs.

I just noticed them for the first time in 10 years.

The PUBLIC entrances Do not have signs (though i am gonna check again to make sure I'm not mistaken)

Now over at the hospital it is CLEARLY POSTED at all entrances right in your field of view.


I guess the only reasonable thing to do is run a zip line from the roof to the parking garage, that way i can get to my car/armory in case of an attack.
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
[youtube][/youtube]
just kidding of course :X


new bee post scipt addendum: how do i embed youtube?

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