Please excuse me if I am posting in the wrong place here, I am a new forum member (and have read the rules, as required). I frequented this site quite a bit while waiting on my CHL to come in the mail.
I have a question that I have been unable to find a definite answer to while reading the law and browsing this forum.
I am unclear as to what "property" means in Texas law PC 30.06 . In other sections of the concealed handgun law, a CHL holder is restricted from certain premises (buildings) not property(what i would think to be is land, etc...). As stated by Texas State law and provided by the Texas Department of Public Safety (here https://www.txdps.state.tx.us/InternetF ... CHL-16.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)
(a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:
(1) carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, on property of another without effective consent
This excerpt would lead me to believe that if I were to go to some private owned entity, and this entity had a 30.06 sign posted at the front road (which is owned by said entity), I would be unable to travel the road and if I did, be breaking the law.
Please tell me if I am wrong.
What lead me to ask this question, is something I ran into today that I have never seen before. A hospital has a 30.06 sign posted at the road which enters their property. Normally I am used to seeing this on buildings, not entrances.
Above is the sign at the road/entrance.
I don't know if it is ok to tell you what hospital etc... But if this where to be a privately owned hospital (which it is not, it is a university hospital), is this legal...and if so, could I not bring my concealed handgun in the parking lot? Also, since this is a university hospital , is this even a legal posting (since I carry on the job, I would like to know this...if I visit the client on this property. )
...I know, alot of questions...again sorry if I am messing anything up here.
Panda wrote:In the context of trespass, property includes land, structures and arguably vehicles.
Thanks!
Trespass, which is what 30.06 pertains to. So if it were a private hospital and they did indeed own the road, I wouldn't even be able to carry on the road. But what if it where to be owned by a state university?
So far, all the answers are correct, but I wouldn't say "complete."
PC 30.06 pertains to carrying a handgun under the authority of chapter 411, subchapter H -- that is to say your CHL. As USUALLY used, (on a building) it pertains to the building, and not the parking lot, sidewalk or such "common" areas. BUT, because this is posted at an entrance, it is construed to cover the entire property (in the common sense). SO -- it is correct to say that you cannot carry even on to the property in your car.
--BUT-- (and this is a big BUT)
PC 30.06 ONLY pertains to CHL holders. That is to say that someone who does NOT hold a CHL cannot be prosecuted under PC 30.06.
That is to say that someone without a CHL, carrying under the Motorist Protection Act (MPA) can carry a gun concealed in their car, and PC 30.06 cannot apply to them.
One can argue that while driving in your car, you are actually carrying under the authority of the MPA, and only when you exit your car are you carrying under the authority of your CHL. We've beat it to death here in various topics here, with no authoritative clear-cut answer, simply because there is no case law to stand on--it's never been tried in court (to my knowledge). My thought behind this is that the CHL is, in effect, an exemption to the general prohibition against carrying a handgun off of property you control. Because carrying a concealed handgun in your car under the MPA is specifically ALLOWED, even in the absence of a CHL, you would be golden. Becayse carrying a concealed handgun in your car isn't a generally prohibited act, you don't require the CHL "exemption" to do it--therefore, you carry in your car under authority of the MPA. Again, it's never been TRIED, so there's no case law to support my theory.
One reason (IMHO) that we don't (and probably won't anytime soon) have any caselaw around 30.06 and/or CHL vs. MPA (for the same act) is because (as is a mantra you'll hear around here) "concealed is concealed." In simple terms, if nobody sees it, nobody knows about it. If anyone sees it, its not concealed--and if it's not concealed, you're most likely committing some OTHER act with which you can be charged, and thus 30.06 becomes a moot point.
As for the school/university factor, it is acceptable (in absence of 30.06) to enter the parking lot with your handgun, just not the building. The general consensus is that you can disarm in your vehicle and go about your business. It *IS* acceptable to go to a school or university with your handgun in your car, provided you don't enter any buildings. Again, all this is in ABSENCE of 30.06.
Your CHL covers you for the Federal side (the Gun Free School Zone act) -- at least for a Texas CHL holder, in the state of Texas (out of state CHL's, or a Texas CHL in another state does not).
So...IF 30.06 only applies to CHL holders, and you're in your car (under the MPA, not CHL), and the handgun remains concealed, and you can disarm discretely, without exposing the handgun (it can be done...), and your CHL covers the GFSZA, I would think you're fine to enter the property, park your car, disarm, take care of business, return to your car, re-arm, and leave--all provided you don't step out of the car with your handgun, and it remains concealed.
All that is a complicated way to say that you're probably fine, but I think it best to understand *WHY* I say that, and the implications. Unfortunately it's not a simple answer, and "concealed is concealed" is a big part of my answer, and I must point out that opinions vary on whether CHL restrictions supersede MPA authorities, especially since I don't know of case law to support either direction.
I qualify my opinion by saying that I am not a lawyer. I am however a Texas CHL instructor, and a daily practitioner who is prone to complex opinions :)
If the hospital is owned by a public university, the 30.06 sign is not enforceable. The building itself may be off limits if it can be considered to be a school. The GFSZA is not relevant in this case as it only covers primary and secondary schools.
Can any lawyers out there tell me if the recent ruling regarding Post Office parking lots can be applied in situations like this. I realize there's a difference between private and government trying to restrict the 2nd Amendment, but the my school district has posted 30.06 at every school parking lot, sports arena parking lots and all the administration building parking lots, So even if it doesn't apply to private property can the ruling be a deterrent to other levels of government violating the 2nd?
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My Faith, My Gun and My Constitution: I cling to all three!
Post Office Law Suit to Repeal Carry Rule Check this post out. Someone said yesterday the a federal Judge OKed Post Office parking lot carry.
I dont know if this is true yet or for Texas CHL?
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Pecos wrote:Post Office Law Suit to Repeal Carry Rule Check this post out. Someone said yesterday the a federal Judge OKed Post Office parking lot carry.
I dont know if this is true yet or for Texas CHL?
KAHR PM40/Hoffner IWB and S&W Mod 60/ Galco IWB
NRA Endowment Member, TSRA Life Member,100 Club Life Member,TFC Member
My Faith, My Gun and My Constitution: I cling to all three!
puma guy wrote:Can any lawyers out there tell me if the recent ruling regarding Post Office parking lots can be applied in situations like this. I realize there's a difference between private and government trying to restrict the 2nd Amendment, but the my school district has posted 30.06 at every school parking lot, sports arena parking lots and all the administration building parking lots, So even if it doesn't apply to private property can the ruling be a deterrent to other levels of government violating the 2nd?
The ruling right now is not precedent since it was made at the district court level. You can always use it as an argument in a case, but it has no legally binding authority on anyone yet.
puma guy wrote:Can any lawyers out there tell me if the recent ruling regarding Post Office parking lots can be applied in situations like this. I realize there's a difference between private and government trying to restrict the 2nd Amendment, but the my school district has posted 30.06 at every school parking lot, sports arena parking lots and all the administration building parking lots, So even if it doesn't apply to private property can the ruling be a deterrent to other levels of government violating the 2nd?
The ruling right now is not precedent since it was made at the district court level. You can always use it as an argument in a case, but it has no legally binding authority on anyone yet.
So I guess it has to be appealed to the circuit court and on to the SCOTUS?
KAHR PM40/Hoffner IWB and S&W Mod 60/ Galco IWB
NRA Endowment Member, TSRA Life Member,100 Club Life Member,TFC Member
My Faith, My Gun and My Constitution: I cling to all three!
Well, if it is appealed, it becomes legal precedent in that circuit. Other circuits may also use it as a precedent but are not bound by it. This type of conflict is what gets it to SCOTUS. If all of the circuit courts of appeal are agreeing on something, it basically becomes precedent everywhere without the mandate of a SCOTUS ruling.
We have been told many times, if it wasn't for the 30.06 law, this would be enough notice to make it illegal for CHL to carry.
If that's true, then the gun buster pictogram sign at the entrance to the parking lot is enough notice to make it illegal to have a handgun in your vehicle under the MPA law. There's also no government property exception under the MPA law, so public libraries, parks and other pgovernment property can post their parking lots against unlicensed carry.
sent to you from my safe space in the hill country
