Can a Sunday School Teacher Carry?

[MikeStone]

I've seen a couple of 'sort-of' related posts, but not one exactly like this.

I've volunteered to teach 3rd grade Sunday School. My church is not 30.06 posted. The church's volunteer policy prohibits "dangerous items including firearms, ammunition, fireworks, and explosives".

I've carried at the church, but not in the capacity as a Sunday School teacher, and not after having signed the volunteer form mentioned above.

1.) Is the 30.06 regulation extended to Sunday Schools? I don't think so, but there will be a bunch of 8 year olds!!
2.) Does my having signed the volunteer form constitute an agreement to not carry? One could assume that the general statement above refers to unlicensed possession...but I did sign it.

I'm hesitant to seek clarification from the church administration. I'm afraid to reveal that I carry and perhaps nudge them toward an official 30.06 posting. I think some people are just more comfortable in ignorance of those of us around them!

Appreciate the advice.

[bdickens]

Short answer: legally, yes.

[Excaliber]

Short answer: legally, yes.

I would disagree.

While a CHL in the general congregation would be legal under these circumstances, as I see it a volunteer who signed a written notice specifically prohibiting firearms possession by persons in his position has received legal notice and is bound by it.

Furthermore, his signature on the document is irrefutable proof that he has received the notice.

[RottenApple]

Short answer: legally, yes.

I would disagree.

While a CHL in the general congregation would be legal under these circumstances, as I see it a volunteer who signed a written notice specifically prohibiting firearms possession by persons in his position has received legal notice and is bound by it.

Furthermore, his signature on the document is irrefutable proof that he has received the notice.

Written notice must meet the 30.06 language. Now, if someone told the OP orally (just a simple "no guns" would do), then yes, he would have received notice that meets 30.06.

[JJVP]

Short answer: legally, yes.

I would disagree.

While a CHL in the general congregation would be legal under these circumstances, as I see it a volunteer who signed a written notice specifically prohibiting firearms possession by persons in his position has received legal notice and is bound by it.

Furthermore, his signature on the document is irrefutable proof that he has received the notice.

PC §30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED HANDGUN.
(a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:
(1) carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, on property of another without effective consent; and
(2) received notice that:
(A) entry on the property by a license holder with a concealed handgun was forbidden; or
(B) remaining on the property with a concealed handgun was forbidden and failed to depart.
(b) For purposes of this section, a person receives notice if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written communication.
(c) In this section:
(1) “Entry” has the meaning assigned by Section 30.05(b).
(2) “License holder” has the meaning assigned by Section 46.035(f).
(3) “Written communication” means:
(A) a card or other document on which is written language identical to the following: “Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (concealed handgun law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun”; or
(B) a sign posted on the property that:
(i) includes the language described by Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;
(ii) appears in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height; and
(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public

I disagree. Unless he was told orally or the papers he signed have the 30.06 language, he has NOT been given notice.

[C-dub]

This is the same as any other employer where the premises is not statutorily off-limits. No 30.06 sign, no 30.06 language in employee handbook or other employment papers, and no oral notice means no effective notice and one cannot be charged or has a defense to prosecution if caught. The obligatory, "can still be fired" applies, but that's about it.

[Oldgringo]

I've seen a couple of 'sort-of' related posts, but not one exactly like this.

I've volunteered to teach 3rd grade Sunday School. My church is not 30.06 posted. The church's volunteer policy prohibits "dangerous items including firearms, ammunition, fireworks, and explosives".

I've carried at the church, but not in the capacity as a Sunday School teacher, and not after having signed the volunteer form mentioned above.

1.) Is the 30.06 regulation extended to Sunday Schools? I don't think so, but there will be a bunch of 8 year olds!!
2.) Does my having signed the volunteer form constitute an agreement to not carry? One could assume that the general statement above refers to unlicensed possession...but I did sign it.

I'm hesitant to seek clarification from the church administration. I'm afraid to reveal that I carry and perhaps nudge them toward an official 30.06 posting. I think some people are just more comfortable in ignorance of those of us around them!

Appreciate the advice.

Find another church. There's a church of some sort on every other corner and there ain't but one God....or so I've been told.

[Hola Gato]

I would refuse unless I got written authorization from the Sunday School administration. There's enough ambiguity that I can't risk some LEO and DA deciding Sunday School is a "school or educational institution" for the 46.03 law.

[SewTexas]

I've seen a couple of 'sort-of' related posts, but not one exactly like this.

I've volunteered to teach 3rd grade Sunday School. My church is not 30.06 posted. The church's volunteer policy prohibits "dangerous items including firearms, ammunition, fireworks, and explosives".

I've carried at the church, but not in the capacity as a Sunday School teacher, and not after having signed the volunteer form mentioned above.

1.) Is the 30.06 regulation extended to Sunday Schools? I don't think so, but there will be a bunch of 8 year olds!!
2.) Does my having signed the volunteer form constitute an agreement to not carry? One could assume that the general statement above refers to unlicensed possession...but I did sign it.

I'm hesitant to seek clarification from the church administration. I'm afraid to reveal that I carry and perhaps nudge them toward an official 30.06 posting. I think some people are just more comfortable in ignorance of those of us around them!

Appreciate the advice.

Find another church. There's a church of some sort on every other corner and there ain't but one God....or so I've been told.

you should only have to do a background check, that's all

[JJVP]

I would refuse unless I got written authorization from the Sunday School administration. There's enough ambiguity that I can't risk some LEO and DA deciding Sunday School is a "school or educational institution" for the 46.03 law.

(c) In this section, “institution of higher education,” “premises,” and “school” have the meanings assigned by Section 481.134, Health and Safety Code

Section 481.134, Health and Safety Code
(5) "School" means a private or public elementary or secondary school or a day-care center, as defined by Section 42.002, Human Resources Code.

Section 42.002, Human Resources Code
(7) "Day-care center" means a child-care facility that provides care for more than 12 children under 14 years of age for
less than 24 hours a day.


IANAL, but IMHO a Sunday school does not meet the definition of school that prohibits CHL carry.

[Excaliber]

Short answer: legally, yes.

I would disagree.

While a CHL in the general congregation would be legal under these circumstances, as I see it a volunteer who signed a written notice specifically prohibiting firearms possession by persons in his position has received legal notice and is bound by it.

Furthermore, his signature on the document is irrefutable proof that he has received the notice.

Written notice must meet the 30.06 language. Now, if someone told the OP orally (just a simple "no guns" would do), then yes, he would have received notice that meets 30.06.

If there was no discussion of the conditions of volunteer service and the notice did not contain the 30.06 wording, I stand corrected on the legal issue.

I also concur on the "find another church." I've done that before for the same reason.

[MotherBear]

Find another church. There's a church of some sort on every other corner and there ain't but one God....or so I've been told.

Come to mine -- I carry and I'm a PreK teacher. I haven't specifically told anyone at church that I carry on Sundays, but our children's ministry coordinator is my range buddy and she knew when I took my CHL course so if she feels like it she can put two and two together. I'm aware of a not insignificant number of CHLs in our membership. You and your gun would be welcome, and we'll ALWAYS take another Sunday school teacher.

[apostate]

(c) In this section, “institution of higher education,” “premises,” and “school” have the meanings assigned by Section 481.134, Health and Safety Code

Section 481.134, Health and Safety Code
(5) "School" means a private or public elementary or secondary school or a day-care center, as defined by Section 42.002, Human Resources Code.

You forgot
(4) "Premises" means real property and all buildings and appurtenances pertaining to the real property.
(in § 481.134, Health and Safety Code)

[jmra]

Simple answers:
Sunday School does not meet the legal definition of a school.
No 30.06 language, no oral notification means carry on.
As far as finding another church goes - I believe I am where God wants me to be. My pastor and most of the staff know I carry. If anything ever changed and I could not carry, God and I would be having some late night conversations.

[MikeStone]

Thanks for the advice. We did go through the requirements and restrictions line-by-line, so my interpretation is that I was given oral notice. Time to back out...