Do you practice a phrase to yell if you draw on a BG?

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jmra
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Re: Do you practice a phrase to yell if you draw on a BG?

#106

Post by jmra » Thu Jan 16, 2014 3:50 am

train460 wrote:I am new here but would like to throw in my 02.
Most comments made above are about what is percieved an actual attack, ie "BG". But in my mind he is not a bad guy "legally" until i either, see a weapon, experience aggresion either facial expressions or with his movements, or am physically attacked.
Just a few examples but my point is that just because someone comes up to you for whatever reason, they MIGHT not be a BG but say a deaf panhandler wanting to hand you a little card that says "I AM DEAF", then looking for a handout. By you saying backoff etc may not have been understood and then you assume the wrong intentions and bang, because he did not "back off" and you are going to jail.
I feel that, if approached in anyway other than being charged i would put up my left hand in a universal signal to stop, yell loud STOP with my body turned that my right hand is gripping my sidearm, but still holstered. If that person still approaches i feel that they would almost have to grab my left hand for me to then pull and discharge. Of course their demaner would play a BIG part in the scenario of course.
just my 02 of course.
Thoughts?
Michael
My thoughts?
1. I would never let someone get close enough to grab my hand. Doing so would put you in much more danger. A BG on average can cover 20 ft in the time it takes a person to draw a weapon and fire. Do you honestly think you will have time to do the same once a person has a hand on you?
2. Drawing your firearm does not mean you must pull the trigger. The law allows you to draw your firearm when "force" is justified. You can only legally pull the trigger when "deadly force" is justified. If someone continues to advance after multiple verbal and physical warnings to stop and you believe you are in physical danger then use of force is justified. If the sight of a drawn weapon does not stop their advance...
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Re: Do you practice a phrase to yell if you draw on a BG?

#107

Post by HerbM » Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:00 am

train460 wrote:I am new here but would like to throw in my 02.
Most comments made above are about what is percieved an actual attack, ie "BG". But in my mind he is not a bad guy "legally" until i either, see a weapon, experience aggresion either facial expressions or with his movements, or am physically attacked.
Just a few examples but my point is that just because someone comes up to you for whatever reason, they MIGHT not be a BG but say a deaf panhandler wanting to hand you a little card that says "I AM DEAF", then looking for a handout. By you saying backoff etc may not have been understood and then you assume the wrong intentions and bang, because he did not "back off" and you are going to jail.
I feel that, if approached in anyway other than being charged i would put up my left hand in a universal signal to stop, yell loud STOP with my body turned that my right hand is gripping my sidearm, but still holstered. If that person still approaches i feel that they would almost have to grab my left hand for me to then pull and discharge. Of course their demaner would play a BIG part in the scenario of course.
just my 02 of course.
Thoughts?
Michael
Sorry, but you have missed the point. Perhaps you didn't follow my original link and read the full description of the method and more thorough explanation.

Avoiding Criminal Attacks
http://www.meetup.com/AustinCombatives/ ... d/10163916

This method is not ONE THING, but a series of several things designed to improve your chances on several counts: morality, ethically, psychologically, legally, and of course TACTICALLY.

The sequences of "Back Off" alone will likely get through to any deaf person, but the body language that accompanies a properly delivered sequence is almost guaranteed to do so.

Moving 90 degrees as you start this helps to uncover intent by forcing the potential threat to re-orient and track you.

Raising (both of) your hands places a barrier between you and the possible threat as well as signaling for him to stop and indicating non-verbally you own peaceful intent and desire to be left alone.

As I also mentioned in later in the thread, you can practice this -- and see the effects if you do it correctly -- against panhandlers even when you have your auto windows rolled up, the radio blaring, and the air conditioner roaring.

Even this way without sound, the proper, "Please Back Off" said with a smile stops almost ALL non-threats. They get it from the non-verbals alone if you deliver it congruently.

They even tend to smile as they turn away or pass you on -- they get it and are not offended in my extensive experience (years) of using this.


Remember, I both teach this to others which has shown us how to tune this to the near optimum effect, and I have practiced it on the street to ensure it operates as intended.

Learn it and try it before you dismiss it.
HerbM


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Re: Do you practice a phrase to yell if you draw on a BG?

#108

Post by CHLLady » Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:21 pm

train460 wrote:I am new here but would like to throw in my 02.
Most comments made above are about what is percieved an actual attack, ie "BG". But in my mind he is not a bad guy "legally" until i either, see a weapon, experience aggresion either facial expressions or with his movements, or am physically attacked.
Just a few examples but my point is that just because someone comes up to you for whatever reason, they MIGHT not be a BG but say a deaf panhandler wanting to hand you a little card that says "I AM DEAF", then looking for a handout. By you saying backoff etc may not have been understood and then you assume the wrong intentions and bang, because he did not "back off" and you are going to jail.
I feel that, if approached in anyway other than being charged i would put up my left hand in a universal signal to stop, yell loud STOP with my body turned that my right hand is gripping my sidearm, but still holstered. If that person still approaches i feel that they would almost have to grab my left hand for me to then pull and discharge. Of course their demaner would play a BIG part in the scenario of course.
just my 02 of course.
Thoughts?
Michael
Michael, I see your point and agree about the hand gesture to stop. In my case, I'd be able to speak to him in sign language. But one thing you don't consider is that deaf people are mostly very good lip readers, they are very perceptive to facial expressions and body language. It's like a heightened sense for them. They know the mouthed word NO. Trust me. My mom could read me by side profile. :oops:

I have been approached by 2 deaf men while at a McDonalds with my friends as a teenager. I sat there and translated to my friends everything they said at their table. You should have seen the look on their faces when I told them, "NO, not interested in your ABC cards and I watched you tell your friend about "How good I am at selling the cards that I don't have to work, watch me when I sell to these girls. I'm so good!" A friend bought a card though, but she was more impressed with me, she wanted to learn Lol. So are they not using ABC cards, just I'm deaf feel sorry for me cards nowadays?

My problem is not reading people, I'm a very good judge of people by subtle signs they give off.
I need my space. If you keep approaching after I have told you to stop, or used the word no, and you still keep approaching, I will react by the best method available to me depending on time and distance.

Thank you HerbM for your insights! It is much appreciated! :thumbs2:
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Re: Do you practice a phrase to yell if you draw on a BG?

#109

Post by HerbM » Sat Jan 18, 2014 1:29 am

CHLLady wrote:
...If you keep approaching after I have told you to stop, or used the word no, and you still keep approaching, I will react by the best method available to me depending on time and distance.

Thank you HerbM for your insights! It is much appreciated! :thumbs2:
Excellent -- that is a critical and key point.

Every time someone "discounts the word no" (this from Gavin de Becker) or "crosses a tripwire" they are increasing my belief that they are going to do me harm and decreasing the chance that they are harmless.


Anyone who can "walk through my best Back Off sequence" is a DEFINITE CANDIDATE THREAT. They may not be dangerous but at this pont I am definitely THINKING they are dangerous until proven otherwise or the situation changes.

Deaf or NOT, they WILL FEEL THE FORCE OF MY REFUSAL and SEE MY COMMITMENT -- most people are GOING TO HEAR IT TOO.

If I can't make the potential threat jump, stop, or at least "widen his eyes" then *I* am not doing it right OR:

This person is in a significantly ALTERED STATE.

Either drunk, drugged, mentally unbalanced, in fear of their own (they might be fleeing a criminal), mentally challenged, or he has WORKED HIMSELF UP to do something like COMMIT A VIOLENT CRIME.

Conducting a hold up is much like "speaking on stage" for the first time -- the criminal must "get up confidence", and most people don't find that trivial.

You have to GO FOR IT. Again, hard to do -- like jumping off the high dive.

All but the most experienced criminals or the most sociopathic must work up to it or drug themselves into it.
HerbM

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Re: Do you practice a phrase to yell if you draw on a BG?

#110

Post by 03Lightningrocks » Sat Jan 18, 2014 1:37 am

HerbM... I have been thinking about your post earlier and will admit to reconsidering some of what you had to say. After reading it again, I am thinking I like the "no thank you" response as well as "not interested" but am wondering why a person that would say something like "but you haven't heard what I was going to say" wouldn't respond the same to "no thank you".

I see your point of using the words "I think" instead of just saying "I said no thank you" possibly coming off as unsure in some way but the way I say it, the words I think tend to come across as a reinforcement rather than a question. But now that I am reconsidering it, there is probably a benefit to just repeating "no thank you".

I admit that I have had situations where a person has attempted to engage in further conversation after saying something like "not interested" but on the occasions they do this, my response gets pretty aggressive. That has typically been when I simply say, "get away from me" or "don't come any closer". It is rare for me to be caught off guard by an approach. I scan the surroundings as I walk and typically pick up on the tell tale signs that a person has just sized you up for an approach. They even look in my direction from across the street and I am eyeballing them.

The next bum or what ever that acts like they are about to head my way, I will give your way a try. Worse case scenario is that it doesn't work and I have to blast the guy... J/K.

Anyway... Thanks for the input. It never hurts to evaluate others input. I shouldn't have responded so aggressively. I got overly defensive about my methods. :cheers2:


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Re: Do you practice a phrase to yell if you draw on a BG?

#111

Post by HerbM » Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:44 am

03Lightningrocks wrote:HerbM... I have been thinking about your post earlier and will admit to reconsidering some of what you had to say. After reading it again, I am thinking I like the "no thank you" response as well as "not interested" but am wondering why a person that would say something like "but you haven't heard what I was going to say" wouldn't respond the same to "no thank you".
That's a good question because the answer isn't obvious to most people:

This is mostly due to the "non sequitur" or "break state" of the "no thank you" FAILING TO FIT the expected script.

It creates a sort of "huh?" moment in the person's mind and breaks the flow of the script they had PLANNED because it doesn't fit any expectation.

There may be other effects, such as people are conditioned to stopping when someone says "No thank you." (E.g., "Want some more coffee? No, thank you." Few people will try to press the coffee on you.

Another thing is that people who sell, panhandle, or approach pretending to be doing these condition themselves to deal with "not interested". (We might lose some of the effect if EVERYONE responded "No thank you.")

Bottom line is that it works in practice.

03Lightningrocks wrote: I see your point of using the words "I think" instead of just saying "I said no thank you" possibly coming off as unsure in some way but the way I say it, the words I think tend to come across as a reinforcement rather than a question. But now that I am reconsidering it, there is probably a benefit to just repeating "no thank you".
Excellent. Just consider it and give it a try. It's not a big difference but the key is that it does give you a little more effect, it keeps you OUT OF THE CONVERSATION, and it's FASTER.

If this is a criminal approach you want every advantage you an obtain, even tenths of a second may count.

Criminals don't care what you say, just as long as you STAY INVOLVED in the conversation.

Again, we've tested it many times and simpler, shorter, clearer, with no "ad libs" is better.
03Lightningrocks wrote: I admit that I have had situations where a person has attempted to engage in further conversation after saying something like "not interested" but on the occasions they do this, my response gets pretty aggressive. That has typically been when I simply say, "get away from me" or "don't come any closer". It is rare for me to be caught off guard by an approach. I scan the surroundings as I walk and typically pick up on the tell tale signs that a person has just sized you up for an approach. They even look in my direction from across the street and I am eyeballing them.
Part of the fun is that almost no one (who isn't dangerous) will continue AND they mostly leave with a smile.

You keep a smile on your face, you don't get "pretty aggressive", and your day goes better. I like these effects. YMMV
03Lightningrocks wrote:
The next bum or what ever that acts like they are about to head my way, I will give your way a try. Worse case scenario is that it doesn't work and I have to blast the guy... J/K.

Anyway... Thanks for the input. It never hurts to evaluate others input. I shouldn't have responded so aggressively. I got overly defensive about my methods. :cheers2:
As long as no one volunteers to be shot, try it a few times -- the "no thank you" especially is a timing thing.

That's why both USING IT and PRACTICING "no thank you" on Cold Callers is so effective -- if that goes bad you just hang up.

I get a kick out of the effect of no thank you on cold callers -- 99% of *THEM* just hang up.
HerbM


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Re: Do you practice a phrase to yell if you draw on a BG?

#112

Post by CHLLady » Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:18 pm

One thing to consider is by raising your hand in a halt motion, it may be caught on camera and will show that you attempted to stop their advance and gave warning. It also displays to witnesses that you are not the aggressor. Most cameras are not equipped for sound, so this is in your favor at trial. Edited: You already said that. :thumbs2:

Herb, I'm concerned that a smile and "No, thank you." by a woman will not be accepted as easily by the aggressor. Has this technique been used by women with the same results when coupled with the body language? Shouldn't women be more firm in their denial?
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Re: Do you practice a phrase to yell if you draw on a BG?

#113

Post by hillfighter » Sat Jan 18, 2014 1:03 pm

jmra wrote:My thoughts?
1. I would never let someone get close enough to grab my hand. Doing so would put you in much more danger. A BG on average can cover 20 ft in the time it takes a person to draw a weapon and fire. Do you honestly think you will have time to do the same once a person has a hand on you?
OK. Elevators and stairwells are off limits. What else?
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Re: Do you practice a phrase to yell if you draw on a BG?

#114

Post by ELB » Sat Jan 18, 2014 1:05 pm

train460 wrote:I am new here but would like to throw in my 02.
Most comments made above are about what is percieved an actual attack, ie "BG". But in my mind he is not a bad guy "legally" until i either, see a weapon, experience aggresion either facial expressions or with his movements, or am physically attacked.
Just a few examples but my point is that just because someone comes up to you for whatever reason, they MIGHT not be a BG but say a deaf panhandler wanting to hand you a little card that says "I AM DEAF", then looking for a handout. By you saying backoff etc may not have been understood and then you assume the wrong intentions and bang, because he did not "back off" and you are going to jail.
I feel that, if approached in anyway other than being charged i would put up my left hand in a universal signal to stop, yell loud STOP with my body turned that my right hand is gripping my sidearm, but still holstered. If that person still approaches i feel that they would almost have to grab my left hand for me to then pull and discharge. Of course their demaner would play a BIG part in the scenario of course.
just my 02 of course.
Thoughts?
Michael
Michael,
You have a very good point here, and one that the process that HerbM linked to is designed to address. As you note, when someone unexpectedly approaches you and sets off your "uh oh" alarm, you don't know for sure what his intent is.

The "back offs", the increasing volume, the raised hands, all serve to help distinguish between good guys (or at least those without violent intent) from someone truly intending harm. A reasonable non-felonious person will move on. Someone who doesn't understand English or can't hear or is perhaps mentally challenged but not violent will get the increasing volume and hand gestures. Someone who pushes past all those trip wires does not have civilized intent and needs to be dealt with (by escape, non-lethal, or lethal means as is appropriate).

This series of trip wires gives you the moral basis to know that you needed to do what you needed to do. It also provides witnesses or video cameras an insight into what was going on. Instead of everyone's first clue being "BANG!" and there stands Michael with a gun in his hand over the body of some homeless-guy-off-his-meds/youth-who-was-just-turning-his-life-around, they see Michael trying to move away and being followed, Michael repeatedly telling the guy to back off, Michael making non-threatening gestures to go away, and the guy still came thru all that.

Of course if someone just flat out attacks you from close range, you skip all the no-thank-you-hand-gesture-back-off stuff and go to battle stations. This protocol is for those gray area enounters where something does not seem right, but there is no explicit obvious threat (yet).

Also, of if you are just outside the entrance to WalMart and a little girl in a uniform approaches with a box of cookies in her hand, I would not recommend yelling "BACK OFF" at her and pulling a weapon. Maybe just surrender and buy a box of the peanut butter ones, they're my favorite.
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Re: Do you practice a phrase to yell if you draw on a BG?

#115

Post by jmra » Sat Jan 18, 2014 1:06 pm

hillfighter wrote:
jmra wrote:My thoughts?
1. I would never let someone get close enough to grab my hand. Doing so would put you in much more danger. A BG on average can cover 20 ft in the time it takes a person to draw a weapon and fire. Do you honestly think you will have time to do the same once a person has a hand on you?
OK. Elevators and stairwells are off limits. What else?
You took my post out of context - if you go back and put it in context you will see that there were no elevators or stairwells in the conversation. Please try to keep up.
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Re: Do you practice a phrase to yell if you draw on a BG?

#116

Post by hillfighter » Sat Jan 18, 2014 1:13 pm

Keep telling yourself that. Maybe it will come true.
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Re: Do you practice a phrase to yell if you draw on a BG?

#117

Post by 03Lightningrocks » Sat Jan 18, 2014 1:33 pm

jmra wrote:
hillfighter wrote:
jmra wrote:My thoughts?
1. I would never let someone get close enough to grab my hand. Doing so would put you in much more danger. A BG on average can cover 20 ft in the time it takes a person to draw a weapon and fire. Do you honestly think you will have time to do the same once a person has a hand on you?
OK. Elevators and stairwells are off limits. What else?
You took my post out of context - if you go back and put it in context you will see that there were no elevators or stairwells in the conversation. Please try to keep up.
:banghead:
Just put him on ignore JMRA. He won't stop. I had to silence him a couple years back. He shows up once in a while, swarms a few posts with wise cracks and disappears again.

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Re: Do you practice a phrase to yell if you draw on a BG?

#118

Post by jmra » Sat Jan 18, 2014 1:36 pm

03Lightningrocks wrote:
jmra wrote:
hillfighter wrote:
jmra wrote:My thoughts?
1. I would never let someone get close enough to grab my hand. Doing so would put you in much more danger. A BG on average can cover 20 ft in the time it takes a person to draw a weapon and fire. Do you honestly think you will have time to do the same once a person has a hand on you?
OK. Elevators and stairwells are off limits. What else?
You took my post out of context - if you go back and put it in context you will see that there were no elevators or stairwells in the conversation. Please try to keep up.
:banghead:
Just put him on ignore JMRA. He won't stop. I had to silence him a couple years back. He shows up once in a while, swarms a few posts with wise cracks and disappears again.
Thanks. I'll do that and hope the disappearing act happens sooner than later.
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Re: Do you practice a phrase to yell if you draw on a BG?

#119

Post by 03Lightningrocks » Sat Jan 18, 2014 1:40 pm

jmra wrote:...."Abraham"...
Thanks. I'll do that and hope the disappearing act happens sooner than later.
:tiphat:


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Re: Do you practice a phrase to yell if you draw on a BG?

#120

Post by HerbM » Sat Jan 18, 2014 7:27 pm

He does however have a point.

The Avoiding Criminal Attacks method(s) we use and teach are designed to work pretty much ANYWHERE, including stairwells and elevators as well as deep in the woods or on a lonely hiking trail.

There are some physical modifications that are inevitable depending on the geography, buildings/wall, objects and other obstacles. (E.g., you can't easily circle if you meet someone in a NARROW stairway.)

Also, the 3 part Back Off will be "telescoped" into whatever is necessary, e.g., moving straight to SHOUTING, "BACK OFF!" if the threat is closer than we can allow.

We pass close to people all of the time, even in open areas. The standard example is returning to your car after shopping at the grocery store, mall, or big box store.

We can't shoot everyone -- not even everyone who deserves it. :)

We can't run from everyone -- at least not all of the time.

We need methods that are:

1) Clear and unambiguous
2) Easily trainable and easily teachable
3) Work under EXTREME stress even if we haven't practiced lately
4) Keep US THINKING, and the bad guys OFF GUARD and OFF SCRIPT
5) Give us every practical tactical, legal, moral, ethical, and psychological advantage
6) Can be shown to work in both practice (against our friends) and in common everyday life

What I am offering you meets those requirements and was tested in the high risk environment of "everyday life" of urban South Africa.

No one would plan to be sloppy about learning to shoot -- so please don't be sloppy or flippant about learning to AVOID SHOOTING.
HerbM

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