Training Requirements Questions

[Glockster]

Now that the OC is a done deal I'm deciding that it's time to stop relying on my former state permits and get my TX CHL as well. But I wanted to ask a couple of questions about the training as I'm deciding where to go for my training. I've been getting different stories about the proficiency portion - specifically about the ammo requirements. I've had two instructors say that the requirement is that you bring 50 rounds of boxed ammo that has to then be loaded, and that this loading is part of the demonstration of proficiency. But in looking at the "DPS TX CHL Handgun License Proficiency Course of Fire" info I'm not finding any such requirement. And I didn't see it in CHL-16 either. So what in fact is the requirement? Also, is reloading your mag a part of the timed exercise (am trying to ask what you need to do, and considering that if someone has a hand injury rapid reload of a mag may not be easy).

[TVegas]

Loading the weapon is not a strict part of the proficiency test. While an instructor may personally feel like you aren't proficient, I don't think they could fail you if you were to pass the shooting test. The test itself is simply a test of following directions and of your accuracy at various distances and in various timeframes. This webpage has a comprehensive description of the test, as well as a video of a test: http://www.championfirearms.com/category-s/375.htm

[n5wd]

Here is the Course of Fire for qualification for your CHL: https://www.dps.texas.gov/RSD/CHL/Licen ... Course.pdf

Your instructor should tell you to load five rounds of ammo at a time, except for stage 1B. Then, it would depend on whether you were using a revolver, or had a gun whose magazine would hold all 10 shots of that sequence. I don't know if you would find an instructor that was OK with you bringing in enough loaded magazines to fire the course of fire, or not. I wouldn't. and since it is a test to see if you can manipulate your gun safely and effectively, I wouldn't let someone else load your gun for you -at least that is what I remember the DPS instructors telling us when I went through the instructor training.

So, I guess you can say that loading your gun is a requirement.

The only timed events are the shot strings. As long as I don't have to take a nap while you reload, I'll wait for you to do so - reloading is not being timed.

[Glockster]

Here is the Course of Fire for qualification for your CHL: https://www.dps.texas.gov/RSD/CHL/Licen ... Course.pdf

Your instructor should tell you to load five rounds of ammo at a time, except for stage 1B. Then, it would depend on whether you were using a revolver, or had a gun whose magazine would hold all 10 shots of that sequence. I don't know if you would find an instructor that was OK with you bringing in enough loaded magazines to fire the course of fire, or not. I wouldn't. and since it is a test to see if you can manipulate your gun safely and effectively, I wouldn't let someone else load your gun for you -at least that is what I remember the DPS instructors telling us when I went through the instructor training.

So, I guess you can say that loading your gun is a requirement.

The only timed events are the shot strings. As long as I don't have to take a nap while you reload, I'll wait for you to do so - reloading is not being timed.

But see, this is my question/point in that nowhere does it require that I can see, that you have to demonstrate loading your mag. And loading the mag is clearly different than loading a mag into a gun. So I'd like to ask since you did indicate that you wouldn't be okay with someone bringing pre-loaded mags - what is the basis for that not being okay for you? Isn't that then adding to the written requirements provided by DPS?

[Glockster]

Interesting that nobody thus far has said boxed rounds. Has anyone run into that or if you're an instructor, what do you say for your students to bring?

[Keith B]

These are up to the individual instructor. You can allow your students to reloads if you so choose and feel comfortable with them shooting them. Also, what I do is make sure the student knows how to load and safely handle their firearm. After they have demonstrated that to me, then I will help them of they have trouble loading. Many times an older person or a person with arthritis will have issues loading their mag in a timely manner, so I will help them load between volleys.

[howdy]

Call the instructor and ask him/her that question. If you don't like the answer, find another instructor. I want to see the student handle the firearm safely. It would also be nice if they know which way the bullet goes in the magazine and if they can load the magazine in the pistol. You can use a revolver too. If you have weak hands then borrow or rent a long barrel revolver. The bullet requirement might be a range thing vs instructor thing. The range I use requires brass casings so you can't shoot the Blazer Aluminum.

[thetexan]

There is no requirement regarding ammo. I have a personal requirement that the ammo be SAAMI manufactured, but I do that only so that I can insure the greatest probability of safety during the course of fire. I make that requirement known to all registrants of my class.

So, as to ammo...bottom line....no official requirement other than it be the correct caliber for the gun used and even that is a presumed requirement. However, since the instructor will be the master of the line he can make any requirement he wishes and therefore, for that class, his rules are the de facto rules for his class. Be sure you understand his requirements before signing up. If an instructor has a personal requirement he should make that clearly understood as a part of the registration info for the class. If he did and you do not have that ammo, he cannot fail you. He may not let you shoot until you come back with the correct ammo, but he cannot, on that basis, fail you because it's not a requirement with the state. DPS won't tolerate that kind of activity if it's tried.

Again, within reason, and with proper pre-notification with class registration, the instructor CAN make requirements for the attendance of his class. The actual pass/fail determination must be based on nothing more or nothing less than at least a 175 score during the official course of fire, and successful completion of the classroom portion. If your instructor, takes your money then refuses to let you continue because of some personal requirement, and that requirement hasn't been made known at the time you sign up and payment (the time the contract between you and him for instruction is offered and accepted) then you might have a breach of contract cause against him if it meant enough to you to claim it.

As to loading...there is no official rule other than you must show a proficiency, or better stated, not display any indication of incompetency at loading or operating your weapon safely. There is no time limit for loading or unloading. The course of fire requirements only specify number of shots fired in a sequence, and the number of those shots fired within a specific time limit. Again, the instructor will be the master of his line and will specify exactly what he requires for his line regarding when and how to load weapons, how he will call the rounds, etc.

There is no provision for failing the course of fire because you were slow loading the magazine. If an instructor tries to disqualify you on anything other than number of shots fired in the required time limits, passing score, or on unsafe or incompetent operation, you could and should complain to the DPS about his operation.

Most people don't realize that you may take the classroom portion with one instructor and take the proficiency with another. This is usually not the cheapest way since most classes include the classroom and proficiency, therefore going somewhere else to complete the proficiency will cost you additionally. I have a personal requirement that if a person fails the proficiency on the third attempt I will not let him attempt again with me until he has enrolled in and completed an NRA pistol course. He doesn't have to do that. He is free to go someone else who doesn't have that requirement but I will not continue until he has had some training. In that situation, the person would take the bottom half of his CHL-100 and have it completed by another instructor if he passes.

tex

[Glockster]

Great information, thanks for taking so much time to spell it all out.

I think that you have touched upon one of my issues in that if an instructor has their own rules for the range, then my going to that instructor is an acceptance of those rules. What I don't like is for an instructor claiming that it is a requirement for the CHL that you must do something like use boxed ammo and load from that. I'm in no way a newbie as I've been a shooter for more than 50 years, have taken three NRA courses, and earned five expert marksman pistols when in the military. so I know how to use a gun. But as a former E-9 I also learned to not put up with those who decide to invent requirements that don't exist or who pass along urban legend as if it is factual. If a rule exists, please let me see it so that I can then understand and comply with it.

All of this is certainly useful as I narrow down how far I want to travel for this and a desire to have the right classroom portion and the right proficiency portion.

There is no requirement regarding ammo. I have a personal requirement that the ammo be SAAMI manufactured, but I do that only so that I can insure the greatest probability of safety during the course of fire. I make that requirement known to all registrants of my class.

So, as to ammo...bottom line....no official requirement other than it be the correct caliber for the gun used and even that is a presumed requirement. However, since the instructor will be the master of the line he can make any requirement he wishes and therefore, for that class, his rules are the de facto rules for his class. Be sure you understand his requirements before signing up. If an instructor has a personal requirement he should make that clearly understood as a part of the registration info for the class. If he did and you do not have that ammo, he cannot fail you. He may not let you shoot until you come back with the correct ammo, but he cannot, on that basis, fail you because it's not a requirement with the state. DPS won't tolerate that kind of activity if it's tried.

Again, within reason, and with proper pre-notification with class registration, the instructor CAN make requirements for the attendance of his class. The actual pass/fail determination must be based on nothing more or nothing less than at least a 175 score during the official course of fire, and successful completion of the classroom portion. If your instructor, takes your money then refuses to let you continue because of some personal requirement, and that requirement hasn't been made known at the time you sign up and payment (the time the contract between you and him for instruction is offered and accepted) then you might have a breach of contract cause against him if it meant enough to you to claim it.

As to loading...there is no official rule other than you must show a proficiency, or better stated, not display any indication of incompetency at loading or operating your weapon safely. There is no time limit for loading or unloading. The course of fire requirements only specify number of shots fired in a sequence, and the number of those shots fired within a specific time limit. Again, the instructor will be the master of his line and will specify exactly what he requires for his line regarding when and how to load weapons, how he will call the rounds, etc.

There is no provision for failing the course of fire because you were slow loading the magazine. If an instructor tries to disqualify you on anything other than number of shots fired in the required time limits, passing score, or on unsafe or incompetent operation, you could and should complain to the DPS about his operation.

Most people don't realize that you may take the classroom portion with one instructor and take the proficiency with another. This is usually not the cheapest way since most classes include the classroom and proficiency, therefore going somewhere else to complete the proficiency will cost you additionally. I have a personal requirement that if a person fails the proficiency on the third attempt I will not let him attempt again with me until he has enrolled in and completed an NRA pistol course. He doesn't have to do that. He is free to go someone else who doesn't have that requirement but I will not continue until he has had some training. In that situation, the person would take the bottom half of his CHL-100 and have it completed by another instructor if he passes.

tex

[The Annoyed Man]

Here is the Course of Fire for qualification for your CHL: https://www.dps.texas.gov/RSD/CHL/Licen ... Course.pdf

Your instructor should tell you to load five rounds of ammo at a time, except for stage 1B. Then, it would depend on whether you were using a revolver, or had a gun whose magazine would hold all 10 shots of that sequence. I don't know if you would find an instructor that was OK with you bringing in enough loaded magazines to fire the course of fire, or not. I wouldn't. and since it is a test to see if you can manipulate your gun safely and effectively, I wouldn't let someone else load your gun for you -at least that is what I remember the DPS instructors telling us when I went through the instructor training.

So, I guess you can say that loading your gun is a requirement.

The only timed events are the shot strings. As long as I don't have to take a nap while you reload, I'll wait for you to do so - reloading is not being timed.

But see, this is my question/point in that nowhere does it require that I can see, that you have to demonstrate loading your mag. And loading the mag is clearly different than loading a mag into a gun. So I'd like to ask since you did indicate that you wouldn't be okay with someone bringing pre-loaded mags - what is the basis for that not being okay for you? Isn't that then adding to the written requirements provided by DPS?

I have observed qualifications in which an instructor/RO aided a student in loading the magazine because she was having trouble with summoning enough strength in her thumb to depress the follower sufficiently to accept the next round. That business is run by a reputable instructor who is a moderator on this board.

[Glockster]

Here is the Course of Fire for qualification for your CHL: https://www.dps.texas.gov/RSD/CHL/Licen ... Course.pdf

Your instructor should tell you to load five rounds of ammo at a time, except for stage 1B. Then, it would depend on whether you were using a revolver, or had a gun whose magazine would hold all 10 shots of that sequence. I don't know if you would find an instructor that was OK with you bringing in enough loaded magazines to fire the course of fire, or not. I wouldn't. and since it is a test to see if you can manipulate your gun safely and effectively, I wouldn't let someone else load your gun for you -at least that is what I remember the DPS instructors telling us when I went through the instructor training.

So, I guess you can say that loading your gun is a requirement.

The only timed events are the shot strings. As long as I don't have to take a nap while you reload, I'll wait for you to do so - reloading is not being timed.

But see, this is my question/point in that nowhere does it require that I can see, that you have to demonstrate loading your mag. And loading the mag is clearly different than loading a mag into a gun. So I'd like to ask since you did indicate that you wouldn't be okay with someone bringing pre-loaded mags - what is the basis for that not being okay for you? Isn't that then adding to the written requirements provided by DPS?

I have observed qualifications in which an instructor/RO aided a student in loading the magazine because she was having trouble with summoning enough strength in her thumb to depress the follower sufficiently to accept the next round. That business is run by a reputable instructor who is a moderator on this board.

Sounds like a great instructor! Is this person in the Houston area?

[thetexan]

But see, this is my question/point in that nowhere does it require that I can see, that you have to demonstrate loading your mag. And loading the mag is clearly different than loading a mag into a gun. So I'd like to ask since you did indicate that you wouldn't be okay with someone bringing pre-loaded mags - what is the basis for that not being okay for you? Isn't that then adding to the written requirements provided by DPS?

Each instructor has different requirements for his class and how he runs the line. In my class I do not let anyone load their guns or preload until at the line. Everyone does everything at the same time, the same way, and on my instruction. If someone needs to preload then I am happy to accomodate.

Needing to preload for the qualification is not in and of itself a disqualifying item unless there is a clear indication of an unsafe or incompetent handling of the gun. If that display of unsafe operation or incompetency occurs during the course of fire I will remove you from the line, disqualify you for that round and mark you as failed if that behavior is overtly negligent or dangerous.. Simply requesting to preload or take extra time to load is quite easily accomodated.

Remember the purpose of the qualification is simply to determine if you can satisfy a score of 175 in a safe, orderly and competent manner. It is not intended to weed out weak shooters, necessarily, UNLESS, by chance, you demonstrate a lack of safety, inability to operate the weapon, or refusal to follow the instructions of the RO or master of the line during the operation. Then I and everyone else will then take notice and usually do something about it.

So, no, there is nothing in the official rules stopping preloading except the RO or master's requirements for that shoot. In all shooting training circles the RO and the master of the line DO uphold safety policy for that range according the the range rules and generally accepted safety rules and procedures and it is universally accepted practice that they run the show. They cannot add requirements to qualify but they can require you to load by their rules at the time.

You will find most instructors and enthusiasts more than willing to help a fellow shooter enjoy his sport including accommodating any special needs like preloading.

tex

[clarionite]

I require my students to load the first magazine, and I watch to make sure they're capable. After that, I often help those that don't have the hand strength to load all the rest.

[MeMelYup]

If you have trouble loading a magazine, get yourself an UpLula or similar. UpLula and other magazine loaders are available in many sporting goods stores and online (Brownells, cheaper than dirt, etc.). The UpLula and others are easy to use, place the device over the top of the magazine and Squeeze the lever and press down, insert the cartridge, release the lever and downward pressure. Do same again until the magazine has desired amount of ammunition.

I gave an UpLula to a friend that was 83 and couldn't load his magazines anymore,due to arthritis, so had quit shooting. He went home and loaded all his magazines, then unloaded them so he could load them again. That weekend he was back on the range.