Open carry question

[Charlies.Contingency]

Oh god, "is-grip-showing-considered-open-carry" is turning into the new "is-iwb-holster-a-belt-holster"

Is my thigh rig considered a belt holster since it attaches to my belt? I had to.

[joelamosobadiah]

I thought it was pretty clear that the holster has nothing to do with it being "open carry." Yes a holster must meet certain requirements to legally open carry with, but as long as the firearm itself, or a portion of it can be seen, then it is considered "open" as it can be seen. If it cannot be seen, it is concealed. If you put on a flap holster like a Calvary Officers holster, and the handgun cannot be seen, it is concealed. Same concept of carrying a rifle in a case. Just because you know it's a rifle case, doesn't make it open carry of a rifle. If the rifle is seen, it is "open."

Did I clarify that any? Please add more to this if needed.

I agree. Also, the retention requirements are non-existent in the Open Carry Law, so that's a moot point. If the handgun is showing, open carry, if it isn't, concealed carry.

[Charlies.Contingency]

I thought it was pretty clear that the holster has nothing to do with it being "open carry." Yes a holster must meet certain requirements to legally open carry with, but as long as the firearm itself, or a portion of it can be seen, then it is considered "open" as it can be seen. If it cannot be seen, it is concealed. If you put on a flap holster like a Calvary Officers holster, and the handgun cannot be seen, it is concealed. Same concept of carrying a rifle in a case. Just because you know it's a rifle case, doesn't make it open carry of a rifle. If the rifle is seen, it is "open."

Did I clarify that any? Please add more to this if needed.

I agree. Also, the retention requirements are non-existent in the Open Carry Law, so that's a moot point. If the handgun is showing, open carry, if it isn't, concealed carry.

Did I mention retention? If you mean by my statement in Blue above, then I meant the "belt or shoulder" requirement.

[NotRPB]

I bet that "concealed carrying" in this holster

would get a person arrested for "open carrying" even if you couldn't see the pistol or any part of the pistol.

TEX GV. CODE ANN. § 411.171
3) "Concealed handgun" means a handgun,the presence of which is not openly discernible to the ordinary observation of a reasonable person.
So, I think holster shape *may*? matter as a reasonable person seeing that flap holster would certainly discern" maybe not discern !! but at least believe/suspect/guess a gun was present... so ... maybe the term "openly discernible" versus believe/suspect/guess is what I question.

I think you are right, similar to "printing isn't illegal" ... however, this isn't a "bulge" it's obviously a holster, the issue is whether it can be discerned that a "real handgun" is in it

One person could put a paper towel over the grip of the pistol in that flap holster ... true it "could be a toy/replica/antique" pistol ... but the investigating officer would determine it is a "real" handgun

So if the concealed handgun is carried the above openly carried belt holster... I could have been wearing that concealed handgun belt holster since 1995?

perhaps you are correct, it may meet definition of concealed,, but I'm sure it would get called in, and soon after, Police and judge could debate it.

I"m still not sure where that type holster fits in situation where a either a 30.06 or a 30.07 sign exists but not both signs present.

Perhaps it's a concealed handgun carried in an openly carried holster?

Probably would be arrested for concealed carrying if there's a 30.06 sign and no 30.07 sign ... probably get arrested for open carry if there's a 30.07 sign and no 30.06 sign.

too costly to find out with Court fees

[Glockster]

One person could put a paper towel over the grip of the pistol in that flap holster ... true it "could be a toy/replica/antique" pistol ... but the investigating officer would determine it is a "real" handgun.

To me that is not really that different from wearing a Sneaky Pete. I don't know that what may be a holster has inside of it. I have personally seen a holster like what you have pictured used to carry a cellphone. This has been discussed here many times, like with someone wearing a fanny pack, or a tactical carrying case, or a Sneaky Pete. I agree that someone investigating could determine that it really did hold a handgun, but that's a conclusion reached only by an officer asking you what is in there, not necessarily by walking up to you and saying that it appears you have hidden a handgun there in the whatever it is. It seems to me that if they have to investigate, and ask, then it clearly wasn't "openly discernible" after all.

[NotRPB]

Open carry of rifles isn't illegal, nor is concealed carry in a guitar/violin case

Good point
Sneaky Pete and Wilderness Safepacker are similar square not commonly associated as holster shapes necessarily containing guns and = concealed (Thanks for that, I hadn't heard of Sneaky Pete holsters, now I need one, well, several lol)

Cavalry Officers holster with flap, anyone who ever saw a movie, instantly would think "gun" not sure they could "discern" "gun" I never saw anyone ever using it, that shape holster for EMT tools, computer repair tools, medical devices, pagers, tablets, cell phones, hammers etc

If that IS a concealed carry holster, ...perhaps if worn where concealed handguns allowed and where open carry prohibited? ... I still wouldn't risk it. I like that type holster, but not worth the potential cost in that particular situation

[Glockster]

Open carry of rifles isn't illegal, nor is concealed carry in a guitar/violin case

Good point
Sneaky Pete and Wilderness Safepacker are similar square not commonly associated as holster shapes necessarily containing guns and = concealed (Thanks for that, I hadn't heard of Sneaky Pete holsters, now I need one, well, several lol)

Cavalry Officers holster with flap, anyone who ever saw a movie, instantly would think "gun" not sure they could "discern" "gun" I never saw anyone ever using it, that shape holster for EMT tools, computer repair tools, medical devices, pagers, tablets, cell phones, hammers etc

holsterFlap.png

If that IS a concealed carry holster, ...perhaps if worn where concealed handguns allowed and where open carry prohibited? ... I still wouldn't risk it. I like that type holster, but not worth the potential cost in that particular situation

I do like Sneaky Pete and have one for my Kimber and one of my H&K. Nobody has given it a second look.

The guy I saw carrying his cell phone in it did so because it was his grandfather's holster, and he supposedly wore it as a TX Ranger.

Another example of a concealed but you don't know for sure is a Maxpedition CC Pouch. I wear it when I'm out on the trails as it matches my other gear, keeps it handy in a way that another holster would be a problem. If you have one on I would recognize it and might wonder if you were using it for that. But remove the velcro inside handgun holder, you could be carrying poptarts in there for all I know.

[joelamosobadiah]

I thought it was pretty clear that the holster has nothing to do with it being "open carry." Yes a holster must meet certain requirements to legally open carry with, but as long as the firearm itself, or a portion of it can be seen, then it is considered "open" as it can be seen. If it cannot be seen, it is concealed. If you put on a flap holster like a Calvary Officers holster, and the handgun cannot be seen, it is concealed. Same concept of carrying a rifle in a case. Just because you know it's a rifle case, doesn't make it open carry of a rifle. If the rifle is seen, it is "open."

Did I clarify that any? Please add more to this if needed.

I agree. Also, the retention requirements are non-existent in the Open Carry Law, so that's a moot point. If the handgun is showing, open carry, if it isn't, concealed carry.

Did I mention retention? If you mean by my statement in Blue above, then I meant the "belt or shoulder" requirement.

I apologize, I clipped the quote to make the post not be huge and accidentally removed the entire other quote. The retention comment was not in regards to your post.

[SA_Steve]

A couple changes to the law will get us in sync with Georgia's weapon carry license regulations:
1 - carry any way you want (except in the hand), holsters not mentioned
2- carry most any weapon, not just firearm

[cmgee67]

You cleared it up very well thank you!

[der Teufel]

One person could put a paper towel over the grip of the pistol in that flap holster ... true it "could be a toy/replica/antique" pistol ... but the investigating officer would determine it is a "real" handgun.

To me that is not really that different from wearing a Sneaky Pete. I don't know that what may be a holster has inside of it. I have personally seen a holster like what you have pictured used to carry a cellphone. This has been discussed here many times, like with someone wearing a fanny pack, or a tactical carrying case, or a Sneaky Pete. I agree that someone investigating could determine that it really did hold a handgun, but that's a conclusion reached only by an officer asking you what is in there, not necessarily by walking up to you and saying that it appears you have hidden a handgun there in the whatever it is. It seems to me that if they have to investigate, and ask, then it clearly wasn't "openly discernible" after all.

When I was in school, a teacher posed a question: If we replaced the roll-up window shades with blanket material, would you still call them window shades, or would you call them blankets? We discussed this for several minutes, and there were differing opinions, until the teacher asked "What would a stranger who walked in say?" We all agreed the first question would be "What are those blankets doing on the windows?"

I think anyone who sees a gun holster would assume there was a gun inside. They may be wrong, but that would be their first and probably only assumption. I also believe a jury would conclude that you weren't concealing a firearm by carrying it in an openly visible holster.

YMMV
--

[Glockster]

One person could put a paper towel over the grip of the pistol in that flap holster ... true it "could be a toy/replica/antique" pistol ... but the investigating officer would determine it is a "real" handgun.

To me that is not really that different from wearing a Sneaky Pete. I don't know that what may be a holster has inside of it. I have personally seen a holster like what you have pictured used to carry a cellphone. This has been discussed here many times, like with someone wearing a fanny pack, or a tactical carrying case, or a Sneaky Pete. I agree that someone investigating could determine that it really did hold a handgun, but that's a conclusion reached only by an officer asking you what is in there, not necessarily by walking up to you and saying that it appears you have hidden a handgun there in the whatever it is. It seems to me that if they have to investigate, and ask, then it clearly wasn't "openly discernible" after all.

When I was in school, a teacher posed a question: If we replaced the roll-up window shades with blanket material, would you still call them window shades, or would you call them blankets? We discussed this for several minutes, and there were differing opinions, until the teacher asked "What would a stranger who walked in say?" We all agreed the first question would be "What are those blankets doing on the windows?"

I think anyone who sees a gun holster would assume there was a gun inside. They may be wrong, but that would be their first and probably only assumption. I also believe a jury would conclude that you weren't concealing a firearm by carrying it in an openly visible holster.

YMMV
--

That would make sense except that for example, a Sneaky Pete doesn't look like a holster. It's a completely closed leather box that could hold lots of things.

[casp625]

One person could put a paper towel over the grip of the pistol in that flap holster ... true it "could be a toy/replica/antique" pistol ... but the investigating officer would determine it is a "real" handgun.

To me that is not really that different from wearing a Sneaky Pete. I don't know that what may be a holster has inside of it. I have personally seen a holster like what you have pictured used to carry a cellphone. This has been discussed here many times, like with someone wearing a fanny pack, or a tactical carrying case, or a Sneaky Pete. I agree that someone investigating could determine that it really did hold a handgun, but that's a conclusion reached only by an officer asking you what is in there, not necessarily by walking up to you and saying that it appears you have hidden a handgun there in the whatever it is. It seems to me that if they have to investigate, and ask, then it clearly wasn't "openly discernible" after all.

When I was in school, a teacher posed a question: If we replaced the roll-up window shades with blanket material, would you still call them window shades, or would you call them blankets? We discussed this for several minutes, and there were differing opinions, until the teacher asked "What would a stranger who walked in say?" We all agreed the first question would be "What are those blankets doing on the windows?"

I think anyone who sees a gun holster would assume there was a gun inside. They may be wrong, but that would be their first and probably only assumption. I also believe a jury would conclude that you weren't concealing a firearm by carrying it in an openly visible holster.

YMMV
--

That would make sense except that for example, a Sneaky Pete doesn't look like a holster. It's a completely closed leather box that could hold lots of things.

I looked up Sneaky Pete holsters and came to the conclusion that there is no way to tell what it is used for. Thus, I would have to say, even if you had the holster openly visible, you would still be concealed carrying. Looks like a big cell phone holster or other tool! Maybe you are an electrician and have tools for that in there.

[glazer1972]

Visible=open
Not visible=concealed

[Mark G26]

Would a CQC Serpa paddle holster be considered a belt holster for OC if not wearing a belt?