Church with Preschool

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PJK
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Church with Preschool

#1

Post by PJK » Fri Dec 11, 2015 11:25 am

I am about brain dead trying to figure this out. I am a member of a church that has an attached preschool. The school does not have a kindergarten. Part of the facility is classroom that the school uses. There is a common area that both the church and school use together attached by a hall through the classrooms. The church owns the building and leases the use of the classrooms to the school. There is NO 30.06 anywhere.

Here is my question. Is the school, since it is not K-12, considered an Educational Institution, thus prohibiting concealed carry?
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Re: Church with Preschool

#2

Post by bigity » Fri Dec 11, 2015 11:35 am

I carry into my wife's work - a preschool in a church (which is not posted)- all the time. It's not a 'school' as far as the penal code is concerned.

EDIT: I am also not a lawyer :)
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Re: Church with Preschool

#3

Post by PJK » Fri Dec 11, 2015 12:03 pm

How do you know it is not a school. I found in the educational codes, Preschools are regulated.
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Re: Church with Preschool

#4

Post by RPBrown » Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:34 pm

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... m/ED.5.htm

Find your answer here. Not a school.
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Re: Church with Preschool

#5

Post by PJK » Fri Dec 11, 2015 4:19 pm

I am not trying to be pig headed but this does not answer the question. The penal code talks about an educational institution. This does not specify if a Private School is or is not a educational institution. However, it does say that a preschool is a private school.

(6-a) "Private school" means a school that:
(A) offers a course of instruction for students in one or more grades from prekindergarten through grade 12; and
(B) is not operated by a governmental entity.

Nothing in the penal code that I have said makes a distinction between Private and Public schools.
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Re: Church with Preschool

#6

Post by bigity » Fri Dec 11, 2015 5:30 pm

Not sure you are going to find a black and white answer.


viewtopic.php?f=7&t=62745#p770133
Daycare's are not schools. Pre-school is also not a school. There is not case law that defines exactly what a school is, but it is generally believed to be a public school that is accredited by the Texas Education Agency or a private school that is ceritifed by the Texas Private School Accreditation Commission. You can look the schools up here http://www.tea.state.tx.us/ and here http://tepsac.org/
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Re: Church with Preschool

#7

Post by srothstein » Sat Dec 12, 2015 11:01 pm

(6-a) "Private school" means a school that:
(A) offers a course of instruction for students in one or more grades from prekindergarten through grade 12; and
(B) is not operated by a governmental entity.
This legal definition from the Education certainly makes me think that a church preschool is a school. That would make it perfectly off limits for carry.

The preschool offers a course of instruction in one grade. The grade is prekindergarten, which is mentioned in this definition. The church is a private institution and not part of a government entity. Thus, this is a private school. Since a school is part of the law in 46.03, and a private school must be a school, I see this as banned.

I am not a lawyer and could very well be wrong.
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Re: Church with Preschool

#8

Post by ct214 » Tue Jan 05, 2016 6:18 pm

Here are a couple of relevant threads:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=79573&p=1011471&hil ... e#p1011471

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=62745&start=15

As for me, if it has the word "school" anywhere in the name, I'll err on the side of caution. Daycare is another story.

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Re: Church with Preschool

#9

Post by Liberty » Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:59 am

Breaking down the parts.

Pre: meaning before ..
School: a place of education.

Sounds to me that it is a place to sentence kids before they are old enough for real scool.
We used to call them baby sitters.
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Re: Church with Preschool

#10

Post by Jusme » Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:00 am

jessicarv wrote:
(6-a) "Private school" means a school that:
(A) offers a course of instruction for students in one or more grades from prekindergarten through grade 12; and
(B) is not operated by a governmental entity.
This legal definition from the Education certainly makes me think that a church preschool is a school. That would make it perfectly off limits for carry.

The preschool offers a course of instruction in one grade. The grade is kinder school, which is mentioned in this definition. The church is a private institution and not part of a government entity. Thus, this is a private school. Since a school is part of the law in 46.03, and a private school must be a school.

I am not a lawyer and could very well be wrong.
Does anyone have any contact information for local preschools? I've searched online and cannot find any of it. I did call one local one that a friend


suggested, but I have not received a call back yet. Getting down to the wire and needing some help. Thank you!


Welcome to the forum!! :tiphat:

Your question will be hard to answer, because we don't know where "local" is for you. I assume you mean Texas, but that is a very large area. Are you looking to enroll a child? Or just a database with a list of pre-schools? There should be a listing in your phone book, or yellow pages on your phone for licensed, pre-schools, in your area.
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Re: Church with Preschool

#11

Post by troglodyte » Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:08 am

While not definitive, the most common thought is that if the "school" is not accredited by the State then it is not a "school". There are lots of "schools", dance schools, karate schools, School of Rock, etc. but they are not accredited by TEA. The State does not directly accredit private schools but recognizes the accreditation from certain organizations such as SAC and NCSA.

There are churches that have "schools" and the kids learn things but they are more organized baby sitting, not discounting their worth or importance. These are not accredited and therefore do not qualify as a school.

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Re: Church with Preschool

#12

Post by treadlightly » Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:29 am

There is a preschool certification program called Texas School Ready that includes a curriculum set by the state. If a preschool isn't a real school, a jury might be swayed by state education certifications applied to the facility. One more reason to oppose creeping gradualism.

In other cases it's easy to see the true nature of the business. Some enterprises will always be daycare facilities, no matter what trappings of schools they adopt. Take your average school of journalism, for example. Daycare. Pure and simple, but that doesn't mean you can carry there. You might today, sure, depending on local rules, but those cute little rugrats are going to grow up. They will take your guns when they can, if they can, any way they can. Watch out!


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Re: Church with Preschool

#13

Post by chasfm11 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:58 am

I think this problem is different than is being discussed. I was part of a church that has a pre-school and that church received a email from the State agency that licenses the pre-school in January after open carry went into effect That agency, in my opinion, is very Liberal and overbearing on normal topics (the amount mulch around slides in the playground) and is firmly anti-gun.

The email reminded the church that the agency had always prohibited concealed carry and now prohibited open carry. THe email also reminded the church that it was their responsibility to enforce the prohibitions against firearms and went into detail about posting 30.06 and 30.07 signs. I was involved because I was helping the church to decide whether or not to put up 30.07. In the end, they agreed with my advice and did not put up those signs. One of my arguments against the 30.07 signs was that they risk having their pre-school license revoked for not having 30.06 signs during an audit of the pre-school. Instead, the church cut and pasted the statement from the agency about the firearm prohibition into the parent handbook which each parent had to sign. It did not contain the 30.06 language. My hope was that the church could demonstrate compliance with the agency policy in an audit and still leave the parents open to "concealed is concealed" because of the lack of proper wording under the TPC. By the way, the Agency claims authority under the Texas administrative code.

So, for me, it is about the pre-school losing its license to operate and how important that is to the church. I believe that the agency is run by Liberals who take a "sanctuary city" type approach relative to the Texas Legislature's intent on firearms.
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Re: Church with Preschool

#14

Post by bdgyeah » Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:15 am

My children are enrolled in the same type of Church program you are speaking about. It's called a Mom's Day Out program taking children from toddler age to pre-k. The Church itself has a 30.07 and the separate building where the "school" is located also has a 30.07. I carry whenever I go there to drop off and pick up the munchkins. I think you are good carrying but if it was me, I would cc.


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Re: Church with Preschool

#15

Post by locke_n_load » Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:38 am

Just to be devil's advocate, everyone is worried about the definition of the word "school", but I would be more worried about the definition of "educational institution" which sounds much more broad and encompassing, and has no definition in any of the Texas Penal Codes that I have looked through.
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