Someone placing 30.07 signs in front of businesses...

[TexasTornado]

I am sure some where out there is a 3 X 5 index card attached to a business with 3007 lnfo on it.

Not following what you're saying.

A 3 X 5 inch index card placed on a door would not surprise me, that is all I am saying..
If these businesses have surveillance cameras they should be able to spot who is placing the signs after hours.

Gotcha. Frankly, after seeing what they do and from personal experience, I wouldn't put it past them to put up full sized signs.

Small, undersized signs, albeit unenforceable, do have a strong deterrent effect on those of us that are legal. For instance, every Fiesta store I've seen (and I've only been to a couple) have small, undersized signs posted on their doors.

So what happens if I walk inside while OC? I could be simply asked to leave. I could get the cops called on me. In the turmoil of either of those, the store manager may learn that they've posted incorrectly, and may revisit their posting guidelines...and choose to post 30.06 as well.

It's better for me, and for all of us, when seeing an undersized or incorrectly posted 30.07 sign, to obey it as if it were posted validly. Simply walking by an invalid 30.07 sign has a lot more implications than walking past an invalid 30.06 sign (which many of us do on a regular basis).

And back to the idea of rogue people posting these signs...I hope that someone finds the way to impose the full weight of law upon them for their actions.

You're right, improper 30.07 means that they have at least enough knowledge of the law to post something, clearly indicating that they don't want anyone carrying on the premises. Not worth the fight over semantics in my personal opinion. I'll either conceal or go elsewhere.

[TexasTornado]

That doesn't look like a cheep sign. Someone went to some expense to make a statement!

Speaking of which, I noticed one of the companies offering CHL classes is also selling 30.07 signs.
Is that hypocritical, or just capitalism?

I seem to recall someone offering to sell valid 30.0? signs to other instructors for in-class use. Nothing wrong with that IMO.

Nothing wrong with either in my opinion. The signs are legal and related to their business. I know our local gun range has decided to post 30.07 for safety reasons related to misfires that have occurred at other ranges when re-holstering in the showroom areas.

As long as they are following the letter of the law, I have no real problems with it; with that said though, any company posting 30.06 AND 30.07, won't be receiving my business.

[MasterOfNone]

Is real estate considered tangible property, as in:

Sec. 28.03. CRIMINAL MISCHIEF. (a) A person commits an offense if, without the effective consent of the owner:
...
(2) he intentionally or knowingly tampers with the tangible property of the owner and causes pecuniary loss or substantial inconvenience to the owner or a third person;
...

[flintknapper]

It's better for me, and for all of us, when seeing an undersized or incorrectly posted 30.07 sign, to obey it as if it were posted validly. Simply walking by an invalid 30.07 sign has a lot more implications than walking past an invalid 30.06 sign (which many of us do on a regular basis).

You're right, improper 30.07 means that they have at least enough knowledge of the law to post something, clearly indicating that they don't want anyone carrying on the premises. Not worth the fight over semantics in my personal opinion. I'll either conceal or go elsewhere.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Disagree, I think this is the worst thing we can do. If businesses are not challenged/required to place COMPLIANT signs up, then they effectively dictate what is acceptable (not to be confused with legal). If you do not walk past a non-compliant sign and force a verbal or written notice, then the sign thing will continue.

IF police are summoned....then it is the perfect time for THEM to explain to the establishment what is required by LAW and if the business refuses to comply (signage)....then they must opt for the Verbal/Written notice. Inconvenient for all involved.

Of course, it goes without saying, be respectful.

[mojo84]

It's better for me, and for all of us, when seeing an undersized or incorrectly posted 30.07 sign, to obey it as if it were posted validly. Simply walking by an invalid 30.07 sign has a lot more implications than walking past an invalid 30.06 sign (which many of us do on a regular basis).

You're right, improper 30.07 means that they have at least enough knowledge of the law to post something, clearly indicating that they don't want anyone carrying on the premises. Not worth the fight over semantics in my personal opinion. I'll either conceal or go elsewhere.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Disagree, I think this is the worst thing we can do. If businesses are not challenged/required to place COMPLIANT signs up, then they effectively dictate what is acceptable (not to be confused with legal). If you do not walk past a non-compliant sign and force a verbal or written notice, then the sign thing will continue.

IF police are summoned....then it is the perfect time for THEM to explain to the establishment what is required by LAW and if the business refuses to comply (signage)....then they must opt for the Verbal/Written notice. Inconvenient for all involved.

Of course, it goes without saying, be respectful.

If one does what you are suggesting, in practicality, what does one gain or accomplish? If you force the issue and they put up a compliant sign, you still won't be able to open carry there.

You do have something to lose though. They could tell tell that they do not want you in their place of business or tell you that they don't want guns at all.

[C-dub]

I seem to remember hearing MDA people saying they would be doing this.

Community Organizers

Bingo!

Possible future presidential candidate?

[hounddog]

One thing I noticed about the sign in the picture, is that it's mounted on a wire stand. This is not advertising a "Yard Sale". They would have to stick this thing in the ground and I don't think anyone wanting to legally keep us out would want signs that could be grabbed up by any passerby. The real deal should be attached to a window or wall of the building. Or am I missing something?

[dhoobler]

I seem to remember hearing MDA people saying they would be doing this.

Community Organizers

Bingo!

Possible future presidential candidate?

I have noticed what appear to be identical signs at unrelated businesses. I wonder if MDA is going around providing businesses with free signs.

[Abraham]

flintknapper,

Correct me if I wrong.

As I understand your post, you're stating that if a business posts a non-compliant 30.07 sign, you'll OC and then expect if/when the cops show up, they'll correct/reprimand/instruct the business owners that the sign doesn't comply?

Do I have that right?

I'll go a step further: The cops aren't called, but the business owner tells you to leave. Are you going to argue because the 30.07 signage isn't up to par, you don't have to comply with their demand you leave?

[TVGuy]

Nothing wrong with either in my opinion. The signs are legal and related to their business. I know our local gun range has decided to post 30.07 for safety reasons related to misfires that have occurred at other ranges when re-holstering in the showroom areas.

I just caught this...Nobody should be un-holstering/re-holstering a gun in a showroom. This is flawed regardless of any signs posted.

For the record, I don't think gun ranges should be posted, but noted that holstered guns MUST STAY HOLSTERED.

[TexasTornado]

Nothing wrong with either in my opinion. The signs are legal and related to their business. I know our local gun range has decided to post 30.07 for safety reasons related to misfires that have occurred at other ranges when re-holstering in the showroom areas.

I just caught this...Nobody should be un-holstering/re-holstering a gun in a showroom. This is flawed regardless of any signs posted.

For the record, I don't think gun ranges should be posted, but noted that holstered guns MUST STAY HOLSTERED.

I agree it could better be handled by policy, but doesn't take a whole lot of imagination to picture...."have I shown you my new SIG?? It's really sweet...takes it out to show it off..."

Most ranges I have been to require weapons to be unloaded prior to entering the show room for this reason as well.

It's natural to want to have the show and tell moment in a gun friendly environment. Unfortunately not everyone is as responsible with their weapons as they should be.

I will give them the same benefit of any other establishment I frequent. 30.07 fine I'll conceal, 30.06 or both, I'll take my business elsewhere.

[flintknapper]

If one does what you are suggesting, in practicality, what does one gain or accomplish? If you force the issue and they put up a compliant sign, you still won't be able to open carry there.

If they can not be persuaded to 'consider' Open Carry with a thoughtful, well written letter, then they will need to do one of two things.

1. Post a compliant sign....which clearly shows their intent, satisfies the LAW and creates an immediate trespass.
2. Post NO sign or a non-compliant sign and be forced to issue notice either verbally or in writing.

What is potentially "gained" is holding merchants to the same compliance standards we are held to and forcing them to consider IF it is worth it to them. If they are adamant about NO OC ....then nothing is 'lost' except some effort and time on our part. As you say...you still can't open carry there, so your point is somewhat moot in terms of OC. There IS something to be gained, but nothing lost.

You do have something to lose though. They could tell tell that they do not want you in their place of business or tell you that they don't want guns at all.

This is a possibility. So what you are proposing is a 'loss' of C/C, correct? Why would they do that? It puts them right back at 'square one'.
Except NOW they would have to post TWO compliant signs...OR try to figure out WHO was carrying past a non-compliant sign, double the trouble. You really can't see that?

[flintknapper]

flintknapper,

Correct me if I wrong.

As I understand your post, you're stating that if a business posts a non-compliant 30.07 sign, you'll OC and then expect if/when the cops show up, they'll correct/reprimand/instruct the business owners that the sign doesn't comply?

Hi Abraham,

I am not stating at all what "I" might do, simply pointing out (possibly suggesting a tactic) the legality of the situation. Until it is challenged and brought to court in order to establish case law on the matter, I believe it perfectly legal to walk past a NON-COMPLIANT (30.06 or 30.07/other) sign or to enter where NO sign is present. At which point....you must be given notice (verbally or written) that the establishment does not allow whichever mode of carry they choose.

Now as to whether or not Law Enforcement is involved and what their actions will be, remains to be seen. It is my hope that LEO will tire of responding to calls that could have been avoided by posting a COMPLAINT sign in the first place and then being asked to assume the responsibility of the establishment (which is to inform).

I do not think it incumbent that police 'educate' businesses, but IF they are there anyway...then non-partisan 'scolding' would seem appropriate. In reality...I suppose it depends on which side LEO comes down on (businesses clearly posting non-compliantly) or citizens having broken no laws by walking past one.

I'll go a step further: The cops aren't called, but the business owner tells you to leave. Are you going to argue because the 30.07 signage isn't up to par, you don't have to comply with their demand you leave?

NO, absolutely NO argument! Nothing I have posted....has suggested that when given 'notice' that...that isn't lawful and binding. So yes...you misunderstand me if you thought I was proposing anything else.

IF/When asked to leave....you need to do so with no comment, be respectful, accommodating... and leave as expediently as is possible. Folks...it is entirely possible to be proactive, make a point, be courteous and non-threatening all at the same time. IF anyone lacks these skills...PLEASE stay at home or learn them.

[Abraham]

flintknapper,

Thanks!

[TVGuy]

Nothing wrong with either in my opinion. The signs are legal and related to their business. I know our local gun range has decided to post 30.07 for safety reasons related to misfires that have occurred at other ranges when re-holstering in the showroom areas.

I just caught this...Nobody should be un-holstering/re-holstering a gun in a showroom. This is flawed regardless of any signs posted.

For the record, I don't think gun ranges should be posted, but noted that holstered guns MUST STAY HOLSTERED.

I agree it could better be handled by policy, but doesn't take a whole lot of imagination to picture...."have I shown you my new SIG?? It's really sweet...takes it out to show it off..."

Most ranges I have been to require weapons to be unloaded prior to entering the show room for this reason as well.

It's natural to want to have the show and tell moment in a gun friendly environment. Unfortunately not everyone is as responsible with their weapons as they should be.

I will give them the same benefit of any other establishment I frequent. 30.07 fine I'll conceal, 30.06 or both, I'll take my business elsewhere.

I've never been to a range where customers could un-holster / show off / handle any weapons in a showroom area, unless it was a firearm the range was selling and they were looking at. I've also never seen it happen.

If I ever saw this practice in person, I would be out the door rather quickly.