How to deal effectively with businesses with 30.06 signs

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thetexan
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Re: How to deal effectively with businesses with 30.06 signs

#16

Post by thetexan » Tue Jan 05, 2016 1:33 pm

Charles L. Cotton wrote:
thetexan wrote:But, I've got to wonder. . . . Why hasn't something like this already been done, or has it?
This is pure speculation on my part, but experienced activists know that the only thing worse than not starting a grassroots campaign is starting one and having only a minuscule response. I'm reminded of the old Lone Star CDL group that called for an open-carry demonstration at the Capitol. Three people showed up and they couldn't find each other.

Chas.

I agree with that. When I was in broadcasting, it was imperative to have a successful turn out. If we couldn't guarantee that we wouldn't do it. Because, as you say, there is nothing worse than demonstrating a flop to the outside world. Just look at the democrat presidential candidate the other day (I can't even remember his name, he is such a nobody) who had a BIG campaign meeting for a city and only one guy turned out! AND HE WAS UNDECIDED AND THIS WAS ON THE NEWS!!!!!

That had to hurt.

tex
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Re: How to deal effectively with businesses with 30.06 signs

#17

Post by RossA » Tue Jan 05, 2016 1:35 pm

This collective action is like what I recently suggested in another thread about many of us sending complaints to the Attorney General's office for illegal 30.06 signs. I think there is power in numbers.
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Re: How to deal effectively with businesses with signs

#18

Post by G26ster » Tue Jan 05, 2016 7:14 pm

There are lots of threads running on signs, signs, everywhere signs, anti-gun businesses, taking your business elsewhere, etc. This is what smokers have been putting up with for years. Now, I'm not condoning or promoting smoking at all. But I am simply pointing out that I believe that banning approx 2% of the Texas population is not going to affect a businesses bottom line. Before municipalities passed blanket bans on smoking in stores, restaurants, hotels, etc., those businesses had no problem banning 25 - 30% of the population from exercising their preference. So why would one believe that 2% of the population being banned is going to change their minds about CC or OC? I just believe it's a useless exercise to state your qualifications and LTCs track record, and/or telling them you'll take your money elsewhere will change their minds. JMHO

Added: In my little area of Texas (mid-cities, DFW) my 30.06/07 notifications are coming in droves. Last two were Redneck Heaven in Arlington that just posted 30.06 (sounds more now like Redneck Heck now), and one 7-11 in Hurst posted 30.07.


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Re: How to deal effectively with businesses with 30.06 signs

#19

Post by FtwBill » Tue Jan 05, 2016 7:24 pm

Interesting point g26ster. I am completely new to the chi world and currently in the waiting room but I am curious about the 2 or 3% thing. The class I attended was over full as well as the class next door easily 100-150 people combined.

I live close to cabelas in ftw so I'm up there quite a lot and I've seen a lot of attendees at those classes. I am new to chl but I have a lot of friends and family who have gotten their cal recently. 3%? Maybe but not for long I say.


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Re: How to deal effectively with businesses with signs

#20

Post by Tracker » Tue Jan 05, 2016 9:02 pm

G26ster wrote:There are lots of threads running on signs, signs, everywhere signs, anti-gun businesses, taking your business elsewhere, etc. This is what smokers have been putting up with for years. Now, I'm not condoning or promoting smoking at all. But I am simply pointing out that I believe that banning approx 2% of the Texas population is not going to affect a businesses bottom line. Before municipalities passed blanket bans on smoking in stores, restaurants, hotels, etc., those businesses had no problem banning 25 - 30% of the population from exercising their preference. So why would one believe that 2% of the population being banned is going to change their minds about CC or OC? I just believe it's a useless exercise to state your qualifications and LTCs track record, and/or telling them you'll take your money elsewhere will change their minds. JMHO

Added: In my little area of Texas (mid-cities, DFW) my 30.06/07 notifications are coming in droves. Last two were Redneck Heaven in Arlington that just posted 30.06 (sounds more now like Redneck Heck now), and one 7-11 in Hurst posted 30.07.
This is going to be rough stats but here goes.....

according to the following article (published April 2015) 841,500 texans have a LTC and that represents 5% of the population over age 21. Roughly 1 out of 20 Texans have a license. http://www.dallasnews.com/news/politics ... ndguns.ece

I'm guessing a lot of those LTC come with immediate family members that don't have an LTC. I would bump that 5% up higher on that. Seems to me that's getting into numbers that would matter to a lot of retailers and restaurants who risk losing those customers. I doubt many of Whole Foods customers have a LTC....but a restaurant like Cracker Barrel would be more conservative and supportive 2a rights to carry.


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Re: How to deal effectively with businesses with 30.06 signs

#21

Post by 3dfxMM » Tue Jan 05, 2016 9:07 pm

Those numbers indicate how many people have their LTC. I suspect there are no real statistics for how many people who have their LTC actually carry, nor how many people who have their LTC care enough about it to not patronize a business over the issue.


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Re: How to deal effectively with businesses with 30.06 signs

#22

Post by stingeragent » Tue Jan 05, 2016 10:58 pm

I'm gonna go devils advocate and say it's gonna take a mass shooting attempt that is thwarted by a CHL holder in a non posted area that also makes national news before people will get on the band wagon if they aren't already. I've had numerous conversations over the past few weeks with staunch anti-gun folks and it's like talking to a wall. They believe a sign will protect them and there is nothing on the earth that will convince them until a criminal puts rounds down range and a law abiding citizen saves their life.


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Re: How to deal effectively with businesses with signs

#23

Post by thetexan » Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:14 pm

Tracker wrote:
G26ster wrote:There are lots of threads running on signs, signs, everywhere signs, anti-gun businesses, taking your business elsewhere, etc. This is what smokers have been putting up with for years. Now, I'm not condoning or promoting smoking at all. But I am simply pointing out that I believe that banning approx 2% of the Texas population is not going to affect a businesses bottom line. Before municipalities passed blanket bans on smoking in stores, restaurants, hotels, etc., those businesses had no problem banning 25 - 30% of the population from exercising their preference. So why would one believe that 2% of the population being banned is going to change their minds about CC or OC? I just believe it's a useless exercise to state your qualifications and LTCs track record, and/or telling them you'll take your money elsewhere will change their minds. JMHO

Added: In my little area of Texas (mid-cities, DFW) my 30.06/07 notifications are coming in droves. Last two were Redneck Heaven in Arlington that just posted 30.06 (sounds more now like Redneck Heck now), and one 7-11 in Hurst posted 30.07.
This is going to be rough stats but here goes.....

according to the following article (published April 2015) 841,500 texans have a LTC and that represents 5% of the population over age 21. Roughly 1 out of 20 Texans have a license. http://www.dallasnews.com/news/politics/headlines/20150417-texas-on-the-verge-of-allowing-open-carry-of-handguns.ece

I'm guessing a lot of those LTC come with immediate family members that don't have an LTC. I would bump that 5% up higher on that. Seems to me that's getting into numbers that would matter to a lot of retailers and restaurants who risk losing those customers. I doubt many of Whole Foods customers have a LTC....but a restaurant like Cracker Barrel would be more conservative and supportive 2a rights to carry.
This is basic marketing 101. Stores rely on these very principals. I know because when I worked in major market radio 30 years ago (Dallas, San Antonio and Houston markets) we used this very kind of strategy in both active and passive research and ad rate combines.

First. A dissatisfied customer does not count as just one. He counts as many...his family...his friends. Bad word of mouth is a killer. Businesses don't want bad word of mouth and dissatisfied customers. Especially in restaurants. So the Chl stats aren't the way to figure this.

Second and as I tried to say before. A individual customers can be dealt with individually. Given a free dinner, an extra 20% off, anything, as an appeasement to their dissatisfaction. There is no psychological connection between the multiple dissatisfied customers. This is why it's much easier to talk to a million people over a radio microphone than stand up in front of a concert of 20000 people. Because when I talk thru a mic I am talking to just one person...you. Not 1 million listeners. There is no connection between the million. Just one person. When I talk at a collisium there is a connection between the masses. That is one big crowd of 20000 people all staring at me, reacting to me and what I do.

So. When a business ticks off a few people that's a manager's office slap on the wrist. When a thousand people act in unison that's a gigantic public relations problem.

Third. It's the unknown that bothers them. A dozen or two ticked off customers doesn't indicate a societal pandemic or behind the scenes effort...a single letter signed by several hundred is much more threatening. It indicates coordination. It indicates a behind the scenes plot the extent of which can not be known. It is the very strategy unions, and marketers have used for a hundred years.

But one thing is sure...the number of dissatisfied customers can not be based on the number in a class of people. If you had a business that had 10 unhappy customers in one day do you think only ten people are effected? Of course not. Those ten won't shop there any more. Their immediate families won't shop there. Anyone they give bad word of mouth to won't shop there. And the effects cascades from there.

The irony of all of this is that this is the precise reason they believe they can put up signs. They rest in the comfort of a belief that they are making their patrons happy. They take a lack of complaint or their silence about their .06 and .07 signs as support in the affirmative and reinforcement that they are "satisfying" their customer base when in fact they almost certainly have no feedback at all. It is the classic marketing mistake...if there aren't any complaints we must be doing good.

Businesses are much more afraid of dissatisfaction than they are of satisfaction. Their purpose in making satisfied customers is to avoid dissatisfied customers. Which results in profit.

All we have to do is actually, effectively, collectively, consistently express our disapproval to the unsafe condition a gun free zone creates, and it will get action.


Tex
Last edited by thetexan on Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:40 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: How to deal effectively with businesses with 30.06 signs

#24

Post by stingeragent » Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:20 pm

Very well said Tex. I agree to make your voice known. In history 1 person, has, and did make a difference. It's not always the case but it has happened. It is better to try than be a pacifist and do nothing at all. I'll agree they and try and appease the common folk, but they fail to realize those same people are extremely ignorant. I can't tell you how many people I saw from states that allow open carry , that were freaking out texas was about to legalize open carry. They didn't even know the state they live in, it was already legal. Most people just don't know anything. They watch CNN before they head to work in the morning, and whatever CNN tells them they take it as God's word and nothing else. They don't research anything. They don't look into anything. Just believe anything the media say's, and then criticizes anyone that is opposed to that media opinion.


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Re: How to deal effectively with businesses with 30.06 signs

#25

Post by Tracker » Wed Jan 06, 2016 12:06 am

Here's an activist's website listing businesses as banning OC and CC as well as business that allows CC and OC so that they can be letter bombed, iirc MDA said they would be doing this activism

https://gunfreebusinesses.wordpress.com


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Re: How to deal effectively with businesses with 30.06 signs

#26

Post by Mike1951 » Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:15 am

thetexan wrote:
Charles L. Cotton wrote:
thetexan wrote:But, I've got to wonder. . . . Why hasn't something like this already been done, or has it?
This is pure speculation on my part, but experienced activists know that the only thing worse than not starting a grassroots campaign is starting one and having only a minuscule response. I'm reminded of the old Lone Star CDL group that called for an open-carry demonstration at the Capitol. Three people showed up and they couldn't find each other.

Chas.

I agree with that. When I was in broadcasting, it was imperative to have a successful turn out. If we couldn't guarantee that we wouldn't do it. Because, as you say, there is nothing worse than demonstrating a flop to the outside world. Just look at the democrat presidential candidate the other day (I can't even remember his name, he is such a nobody) who had a BIG campaign meeting for a city and only one guy turned out! AND HE WAS UNDECIDED AND THIS WAS ON THE NEWS!!!!!

That had to hurt.

tex
Old Timers will remember the media induced fear after passage of the original law in 1995. Until 30.06, any sign was sufficient.

In the late '90s, many campaigns were waged against companies who posted against concealed carry, involving letter writing and phone calls. Many battles were won, as businesses you would never think of now, initially posted.

Back then, the central site was Packing.Org, which is not always recalled fondly, but it was what we had and in coordinating these campaigns worked well. I doubt Charles would want this site to become that.

Someone more familiar with social media would have to study whether it could be an effective venue. My impression is that liberals could far outnumber Conservatives on social media and generate results not in our favor, reinforcing the business' position.

For this reason, I believe individual letters and phone calls still represent the best option. The potential risk, as it was 20 years ago, is less than tactful, sometimes inflammatory, responses. Hostility does not work in our favor.

So, yes, it has been done before, often successfully, and it could work again. I'm undecided whether it might be wise to let the 'dust settle' a little before such actions begin.

To be most effective, letters and calls need to be directed to the same person, or at least the same location. Contacting individual locations would probably be fruitless, so everything should go to corporate. What is needed and might not be welcome here, is the posting of the corporate address and contact info for the responses. Further, someone has to do that research and post it.

A gathering site with sufficient exposure where this information could be posted is a necessity.
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Re: How to deal effectively with businesses with 30.06 signs

#27

Post by Bluegill » Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:18 am

Hi Fuzzy,

I have a concealed weapons license in good standing and have been in your stores for lunch. I noticed that the new 30.07 signs went up prohibiting the open licensed responsible carry of pistols at the stores I frequent.


The only difference I can see is that yesterday I wore my jacket and tomorrow I might not because it sure does get hot most of the year. Come spring when the weather warms up I don’t think I will be able to eat lunch at your restaurant anymore, sorry.

Fortunately, there are about a dozen other taco style establishments that I can go to where I will be welcome so I will be alright but I will miss your fish tacos.

See ya.

Ed


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Re: How to deal effectively with businesses with 30.06 signs

#28

Post by Unocat » Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:28 am

Just because one registers with a website does not equate to viewing ans digesting all available content of that site. In order to receive effective notice, the business itself must post a sign in compliance with the law and/or notify the customer through verbal or written communication at the time.

Case in point, I am a member of Amazon prime, yet I miss tons of great lightning deals because I don't know everything that is going on on the Amazon site any any particular time. If I miss a deal can I claim that since I am a member, that all deals are available to me and the their site must feed me all information at all times? A bit of a weird analogy but you get it...

Your premise is akin to hearsay. If someone (not the store) tells you something, like this store has a 30.07 posted, that may or may not be the case.
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Re: How to deal effectively with businesses with 30.06 signs

#29

Post by bagman45 » Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:59 am

Unfortunately, in my area (Plano), we're starting to experience exactly the UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES that we've all feared once Open Carry passed. BOTH 30.07 and NEW 30.06 signs are being posted at places that were NOT posted before the law went into affect. We were flying under the radar before, and were able to pretty much carry in most places. NOW, I'm guessing a LOT of that will end. Thanks a bunch to the relatively FEW who believe that Open Carry was worth the ultimate loss of self-protection that we are about to experience......

I truly pray that I'm wrong on this, but from what I've seen in one short week in my area, this is gonna require MORE laws to be passed to override the 30-06 restrictions; otherwise, we'll effectively be back to carrying in our homes, yards and cars, as the places that most of us go to shop, watch our kids play sports, or otherwise seek recreation will be OFF LIMITS. Rant over (for now.....). :mad5


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Re: How to deal effectively with businesses with 30.06 signs

#30

Post by chuck j » Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:04 am

You can take it for whatever worth you want or simply discard it , that's up to you .
I have owed the same sales/service business for 32 years . We are selling/servicing many people's grandchildren from when we started . I employ 3-6 people depending on the season and economy . I intend to place pro carry signage in my front window . I will get some blow back from it BUT I think we will add a few from it also . People will acclimate if given time , look at all the states with open carry ? I personalty will most likely never open carry but think it should be available for those who would .

Your family/sole proprietor/ business's are not going to have something crammed down their throat . We fight the city , the county , deal with the public , put up with the Feds , deal with supply and demand , keep up with trends and cultural shifts ,etc .

My point being that threats or being a jerk will not benefit the cause at all , these folks in business are use to it , it will only reinforce their conviction to ban guns .
If your dealing with corporate or chain stores/business's..............that's a different animal .

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