I now regret that OC passed

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SlowDave
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Re: I now regret that OC passed

#91

Post by SlowDave » Thu Jan 07, 2016 5:36 am

Charles L. Cotton wrote:
LSUTiger wrote:. . . I am sure OC has played a role in speeding up the inevitable. But IMHO, it was only a matter of time before 30.06 was going to inevitably be posted in more and more places as time goes on regardless of OC.
Nope, it wasn't inevitable and in the 18 years since HB2909 passed creating TPC §30.06, there were very few 30.06 signs posted. Some folks are saying there were a lot of 30.06 signs initially, but they came down over the years. This is not the case by any means. The "big ugly signs" were very few and far between.

The OCT antics put the focus on signs and the anti-gunners used it to their advantage. As the OP stated, open-carry supporters are making things worse by complaining about 30.07 signs, or the lack thereof, and we will see more 30.06 and 30.07 signs. They will not come down as time goes by, at least not in significant numbers.

Open-carry supporters who are in the "you're with us or you're against us" camp won't even admit there's a problem now. The few that do claim "this too will pass." No, it won't pass. OC supporters won't let it pass.

Chas.
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SlowDave
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Re: I now regret that OC passed

#92

Post by SlowDave » Thu Jan 07, 2016 5:52 am

John75 wrote:I don't intend to OC but I fully support people demanding their Constitutional rights. If we aren't pushing gun rights forward, then we are losing. I don't mind changing where I shop and letting businesses know why. When anti-gunners are upset, then you can bet it's a good thing. Many people are just scared of guns and I believe OC may help diminish that.
Sorry, but I'm sick and tired of the line of reasoning that if I piss off my opponent, then I have made my achievement for the day. What I want to do is win my opponent over to my side of reasoning, which is pretty much guaranteed not to happen when I piss him/her off.

Also, your last statement is absolutely 100% off. Showing people who are scared of guns a gun on someone's hip at the grocery store or Bed, Bath, and Beyond will NOT diminish their fear. It's like thinking people who are scared of snakes will get over it by every now and then walking into the grocery store and seeing a snake. No, they will go tell the manager and see what can be done to get the snakes out of their grocery store. The fact that the snake did not bite them and actually wasn't even poisonous is absolutely and completely irrelevant to their fear.
Last edited by SlowDave on Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:16 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: I now regret that OC passed

#93

Post by amtank » Thu Jan 07, 2016 5:59 am

nightmare69 wrote:
Beiruty wrote:I am surprised that so many posted 30.06 as well as 30.07.
This.

My fiancé and I went to see Star Wars last night. Much to our surprise the theater who was once open to CC has posted both 30.06 and 30.07. Now both theaters in my town has banned LTC holders from carrying.

What brand theater?


SlowDave
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Re: I now regret that OC passed

#94

Post by SlowDave » Thu Jan 07, 2016 5:59 am

thatguyoverthere wrote: Whether you or I or anyone else actually wanted OC to pass or not, and whether we now regret it or not, it's here. It's a done deal now. So now, does it really achieve anything worthwhile for some to say "I told you so" and/or to bellyache about what's happening now?
The reason to "bellyache" about it now is for everyone to learn from their actions. Next time a similar item comes up, people may be more inclined to think, "Oh wait, remember how the OC thing worked out."

If you haven't been very affected by the OC passage, great. I can tell you that just one posting, at your place of work, makes the entire thing VERY unworthwhile.


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Re: I now regret that OC passed

#95

Post by amtank » Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:03 am

rytchard wrote:As it has only been a few days, I have only noticed a few changes where I am at.

I have "not" opened" carried. Not saying that I never would, but I have always thought that what ever advantage I can have is good, and concealed carry works great for my mind set.

Notwithstanding, I live in Benbrook (SW Fort Worth) and work in Hudson Oaks (Parker County).

I "was" disappointed to see that the Movie Tavern on Hulen in Fort Worth and Rave Motion Pictures theater at the Ridgemar Mall had posted both 30.06 and 30.07. I used to frequent those. But there are plenty of movie theaters in the area. I will adapt.

At least to date, both areas, home and work have not posted "any" new signs.

I have seen a lot of posts about being asked for a CHL or LTC. Personally, I have no problem showing someone my license as I want to maintain that I am still a neighbor, and member of the two communities that I am active in. Sometimes what is law and what is "the right thing to do" differs in my opinion.

If I see a sign at a business that doesn't meet the requirements I will continue to carry concealed. But, if I see a genuine effort at a business to comply, I will avoid.

My point is this: We have rights, and are licensed to do things that 95% of the state's population are not. Some of the things that are covered in CHL classes were; de-escalation, and avoid confrontation. I understand the merit of those.

I am done rambling for now. As always, it is just me saying.

:tiphat:
You may want to check the Rave, I was under the impression they were owned by Cinemark and they are only posting .07


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Re: I now regret that OC passed

#96

Post by chuck j » Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:12 am

Les Miles wrote:
gljjt wrote:
Right2Carry wrote:Other states don't have a problem and I have yet to see a new sign anywhere yet. I am starting to think there are a lot of false reports being generated by those with an agenda. Just my opinion. I still think it's much ado over nothing since it's only 5 days into it.
Other states don't have OCT, OCTC...
I really don't understand the hate for OCT. I've also seen people saying OCT wasn't responsible for getting open carry passed. Seems like they were to me. Seems the media thinks so too, seeing as how they keep interviewing CJ Grisham and asking him about it. :txflag:
You might start thinking a little . The media/whoever interview or promote OCT are looking for a pack of rifle toting idiots to prove that 'WE' that carry are all like that .............a pack of mentally ill idiots . OCT is the best thing in Texas that ever happened for the anti gun crowd .

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Re: I now regret that OC passed

#97

Post by nightmare69 » Thu Jan 07, 2016 7:07 am

amtank wrote:
nightmare69 wrote:
Beiruty wrote:I am surprised that so many posted 30.06 as well as 30.07.
This.

My fiancé and I went to see Star Wars last night. Much to our surprise the theater who was once open to CC has posted both 30.06 and 30.07. Now both theaters in my town has banned LTC holders from carrying.

What brand theater?
Regal. They always has a generic "no guns" sign but since the 1st they've posted both valid signs.
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Re: I now regret that OC passed

#98

Post by Swoops1 » Thu Jan 07, 2016 7:09 am

Let me start by saying I believe protecting myself is a God given right, the founders of our country created a document to protect that right. I do not regret that OC passed, however (my opinion) OCT created an atmosphere that made the people of Texas look like a bunch of lunatics running around with long guns slung at low ready, altercations with LEO posted on social media . A most recent photo on FB with a OCTer shooting the bird at an HEB store (that really helps your cause). Unfortunately especially since since Brady was shot we have a media that has unlimited resources, our representatives have unlimited access to the press that can spread misinformation. We have an entire generation of young people that get their news from the Comedy Channel. With rights come responsibility. I could go on and on but I know I'm preaching to the choir. Carry on my friends whatever method you choose to carry, just carry.


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Re: I now regret that OC passed

#99

Post by amtank » Thu Jan 07, 2016 8:03 am

Regardless of membership in any organization the person visually expressing their opinion of displeasure with HEB has a right to do so. No organization can meet this saintly standard that seems to be expected.

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Re: I now regret that OC passed

#100

Post by Oldgringo » Thu Jan 07, 2016 8:24 am

I expect that the various anti-gun factions who lurk on this forum are ROFLTAO at the bickering and division among the pro-gunners over an issue that, given an opportunity, will die down.

How 'bout let's all calm down, cool our jets, act like responsible and mature adults and nobody write nothing about nothing for ONE WEEK? We are all Texans, let's act like it. :txflag:


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Re: I now regret that OC passed

#101

Post by KHickam » Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:20 am

As I said before - I am glad OC passed - now I have a choice to make - do I want to conceal or not - lots of that depends on the weather and what firearm I am carrying - I carry service sized pistols - they always printed and few noticed - those that did never said anything. Now if it is warmer or I want to wear my shirt tucked in I can

OC vs CC - well I know from experience it is easier/faster to get a gun that is open carried into action - and I see no tactical advantage to carrying concealed (although I do most times to not alarm people) and after years in the military/law enforcement with all the training and situational awareness that entailed - I am just comfortable either way.

If in fact more businesses are posting more signs that is a shame - but since most of the businesses I frequent are sporting goods or hunting oriented it has not affected me much - I don't eat out much and loathe shopping (unless it is for guns/ammo) and I will simply cover the gun if I see a sign and if asked to leave I will do so if not posted - if I go to a movie theatre you can be sure it will be one that allows CC or not - but will not go unarmed into a movie theatre anymore.
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Re: I now regret that OC passed

#102

Post by The Annoyed Man » Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:49 am

Right2Carry wrote:
nightmare69 wrote:
Right2Carry wrote:Other states don't have a problem and I have yet to see a new sign anywhere yet. I am starting to think there are a lot of false reports being generated by those with an agenda. Just my opinion. I still think it's much ado over nothing since it's only 5 days into it.
The first 2 days I must of got half a dozen notifications from Texas3006 for new postings in my city. Been a few every couple of days also.
I don't use the website and I don't know if a location is verified before it is actually added. Seems to me if only one report of a location is needed there are those that could post false reports of sinage for any number of nefarious reasons. I am not saying this is happening but it could happen without some type of verification process.

the number of new postings compared to the number of businesses in Texas is bound to be minuscule at best. This is all an over reaction by people who refuse to let things settle out and give it a chance.
Then let me suggest that you SHOULD use the website. Many of the listings, including the couple that I've posted myself, include photos of the signs taken by the person who posted that location on the website. BEFORE 1/1/16, I probably received 5 or 6 notification emails of new postings or edits to exiting posts (a feature of that site) over the previous 2-3 years. SINCE 1/1/16, I've received probably 2-3 PER DAY - each representing a new 30.07 sign, and in some cases, a previously unposted business putting up both 30.06 and 30.07 signs. How many emails you personally receive will depend on how large of a metropolitan region you live in. I live in NE Tarrant county, in the DFW metroplex. Each one of those newly posted businesses represents a reaction to the passage of open carry.......and some of them a reaction to someone having actually open carried into that business.

Furthermore, not only are the additions to the database fairly accurate, but site members can update the listings others have posted if they see changes, which helps to ensure a certain amount of ongoing relevance. Next to this forum and the DPS website, texas3006.com is the single most useful source of information for licensed carriers in Texas.

But the truly disheartening thing is the number of previously UNposted businesses which have included 30.06 in their new signage. THAT was absolutely predicted and predictable. Although I am glad that open carry passed, it is a FACT that, partly as a result of the behavior of open carry militancy, there are fewer places that I can now lawfully conceal carry. That is a fact. If you deny that fact, then it casts doubt on the rest of your reasoning surrounding this issue. The only HONEST answer for OC activists is to admit that their own behavior is at least partly responsible for the escalation of tensions in the public's mind regarding all forms of lawful carry - whether we are talking about the concealed or open carry of handguns, or the open carry of long guns. Hot-headed, unwise, intemperate, short-sighted, reality-denying behavior by a pack of unregenerate fools before passage of OC poisoned the well for legal open carry post-passage. And as Charles pointed out above, I now have fewer places than before where I may defend myself with the best tool for the job.

My biggest disappointment in all of this is learning how many of my fellow 2nd amendment advocates showed themselves to be so fundamentally unwise — NOT in their advocacy, but in the manner of its execution.

We asked for OC. We got OC. Now let us demonstrate through SOBER and VIRTUOUS behavior that we actually merited the confidence which the legislature placed in us. And part of that sober virtuosity includes not screwing things up going forwards, not just for ourselves, but for future generations of Texans. And THAT requires that we STOP thinking in terms of selfish instant gratification, and START thinking like statesmen. It might not be fair, but the eyes of Texas are upon us. BE WORTHY of that.
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VMI77
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Re: I now regret that OC passed

#103

Post by VMI77 » Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:09 am

The Annoyed Man wrote:But the truly disheartening thing is the number of previously UNposted businesses which have included 30.06 in their new signage. THAT was absolutely predicted and predictable.
I think OC may have been the factor that changed my company policy from allowing CC to prohibiting both CC and OC. OTOH, I am wondering if most of the posting is taking place in large urban areas and not so much in more rural areas. Except at my work location I haven't seen any places around where I live that are posting new signs...even 30.07 signs. HEB is supposedly prohibiting OC but there were no signs at the Cuero HEB last night. I passed a Valero station in Gonzales this morning...no signs. Where I'm working today in Austin there is a new sign...a 30.07 sign....but this location has been posted 30.06 from day one. I scanned the stores in town as I passed through Gonzales, Luling, and Lockhart and didn't see any signs.

I haven't gotten out and about much this week so it's a limited sample but so far the only newly posted location I've encountered is my work place. I also have yet to see anyone open carrying.
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Re: I now regret that OC passed

#104

Post by GeekwithaGun » Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:32 am

I really don't regret that OC passed, what I do regret is having any signage requirement to prohibit either CC or OC. There are plenty of states where signs have no force of law, there are restricted places by statute like Texas, but no sign can prohibit CC. I like the fact that I don't have to conceal as good as I did before, so if it warms up and I take my jacket off in the car, I now don't have to put it back on before I step out to pump gas for instance. I don't have to worry about my shirt flying up from the wind or it getting caught on the grip and showing after bending down like it has while doing things in the yard.

What I regret most though is businesses now posting both signs when none was posted before 1.1.16

I've been in a contemplative mood this morning and maybe getting a little more fired up and sent one email to a business who posted both signs where none was before. I wish that we didn't have to do any of this.

ETA: I also have not seen anyone open carrying yet.
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Re: I now regret that OC passed

#105

Post by baldeagle » Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:57 am

CoffeeNut wrote:
carlson1 wrote:I regret it passed because just like was proposed by myself and many we now have less places we can CC because they have all been educated about proper signage.
:rules:

I would have rather seen off limit areas disappear.
So why the push for it? If groups like OCT did nothing but damage to the OC cause then why not let them be responsible for killing off OC? Why didn't the NRA and others push for better things rather than going for OC?

I'm not harping on you so please don't take it that way. I just see your sentiment on this forum, and I am starting to share it as well, so if we knew this was possible why did we push for OC?
Charles can answer this better than anyone, but I'll take a stab at it.

Two sessions ago OCT got an absolutely horrible OC bill introduced. The NRA and TSRA would not support it, because it eliminated 30.06 (among other things) and made things worse for everyone. So it died in committee. OCT then loudly proclaimed that NRA and TSRA had sabotaged the bill and were clearly anti-OC. That was false. NRA and TSRA have always been pro-OC, but there were other priorities that were of a higher precedence. (Eliminating or reducing the places that are off limits was very high on the list. So was campus carry.) The idea was to get improvements in CC first, then get OC through, because it would be a lot harder to roll back the other changes afterwards.

But OCT continued to stir the pot, prompting some national chains to publicly state that they would prefer their customers not carry in their stores. (All of us knew that meant nothing with regard to CC, and I'm pretty sure the chains knew that as well. It was a sop to the anti-gun crowd that OCT was getting stirred up and riled up.) Because of OCT we now have Moms Demand Action in Texas, and they routinely point to OCT as "proof" that people with guns are crazy and can't be trusted.

Last session OCT was planning to introduce another OC bill. (I'm pretty sure they did, but Charles can confirm that.) But the NRA and TSRA introduced one as well, because their hand had been forced by OCT. Either we got a good bill through or a bad bill through. That was the choice. Then OCT tried to poison the bill with the Dutton Amendment, which would have killed it. Why? Because for them it was all or nothing. It was only the furious behind the scenes work of the NRA and TSRA that salvaged that, and even then it was passed at the last possible moment in the session.

So now we have OC. Its impact is not yet known, but I believe it's going to be MUCH harder to get off limits places removed now. What's the legislature going to do? Say you can only CC at amusement parks? Sporting events? Racetracks? Bars? Can you imagine the outcry if they allow OC at those places?

It may still be doable. Charles has worked miracles before. But it's going to be much harder. And it may take much longer.

That is why you approach these issues like an adult, with a realistic understanding of the atmosphere within which you are working. Yes, this is Texas. But we have some of the largest cities in the country. And large cities are almost exclusively liberal and opposed to guns. Once OCT came busting through the door rearranging the furniture without even bothering to ask and loudly demanding their "rights" while threatening anyone who opposed them, the atmosphere for positive changes on our gun laws went decidedly negative. It's only because Charles, the NRA and the TSRA have worked diligently in the legislature for over 20 years building relationships, that we were able to accomplish what we did last session, despite the negative influence of OCT.

For those who point to other states that have OC and don't have problems, you can't compare other states to Texas. For one thing, some of those states have always had OC. It's never been illegal to openly carry a handgun in public. So all the recent CC improvements in those states are completely unrelated to OC. In Texas the two are tied together in the public's mind. They're all a part of the "gun nut" faction demanding their rights. Others have recently gotten OC or so-called "constitutional carry", but they don't have big cities like Texas does. Oklahoma's biggest city is OKC, which is barely bigger than Arlington, TX. Phoenix is bigger, but the state is mostly rural and has a long history of gun culture. Alaska? Do I really need to explain that?

Look at gun laws across the country. The more populous the state the stricter the laws. California? A nightmare for gun owners. New York? Same thing. Texas is a glaring exception to that. But we have to be realistic and realize who and what we're working with and what difficulties we have to overcome to get laws passed. In California or New York, OCT would be in jail. There would be no controversy. Frankly I now think "constitutional carry" is dead in Texas. There is no way it will get the votes in the legislature after what OCT has done. Maybe in another ten or twenty years, if OCT dies off. But not until then.

There's an old saying that you don't poop where you sleep. Well, that's exactly where OCT poops, and the stink is rising. (Mods, if that's too much, just remove it.)
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