Non-LTC carry on Another's Private Property

[Soccerdad1995]

I think for my BBQ, I will host a free 10 minute firearm safety class, before we start grilling. If people want to practice carrying a firearm on their hip during the BBQ, that is additional training.

Even though I am an NRA instructor, it will be a non-NRA sponsored class.

I have yet to hear of any instructors teaching out of their home have a problem from Johnny Law with non license holders having firearms outside their own home/vehicle. Although we will be in my backyard and will not draw any attention anyways.

Maybe its like that GFSZA, that doesn't ever get prosecuted by itself (had to add that for Scott).

I think that the likelihood of anyone having a legal issue is remote at best. I could see an issue if there was an AD/ND.

Something I just thought of. If these people do not have a LTC then why would they own holsters? Maybe I am just confused.

[crazy2medic]

I suppose if friends and family were all carrying openly on YOUR property then they have your permission to do so! If for whatever reason the LEO that have jurisdiction show up you could meet them at the driveway and politely ask them their business on your property if their reply is to investigate a report of multiple people carrying firearms, then you instruct the LEO's that it is your property and in the nicest of terms tell them they will need a warrant to search the property!

[locke_n_load]

I think for my BBQ, I will host a free 10 minute firearm safety class, before we start grilling. If people want to practice carrying a firearm on their hip during the BBQ, that is additional training.

Even though I am an NRA instructor, it will be a non-NRA sponsored class.

I have yet to hear of any instructors teaching out of their home have a problem from Johnny Law with non license holders having firearms outside their own home/vehicle. Although we will be in my backyard and will not draw any attention anyways.

Maybe its like that GFSZA, that doesn't ever get prosecuted by itself (had to add that for Scott).

I think that the likelihood of anyone having a legal issue is remote at best. I could see an issue if there was an AD/ND.

Something I just thought of. If these people do not have a LTC then why would they own holsters? Maybe I am just confused.

I owned several holsters before I got my LTC - I was under 21 and went to the range, and had holsters to carry them in.

[goose]

As I read the thread, I think it had several digressions that are separate from CC. 1) Having a pistol in a range bag going to a CHL class does not equal CC. (yes, I suppose a person could argue about purse carry vs range bag. I'd ask for a new article about an arrest for purse carry at a CHL class.) 2) Having folks over to ones home to handle firearms does not equal CC. The question as I hear it is carrying on person. I think locke_n_loaded's "class" idea would be interesting, especially if the homeowner had any NRA or CHL certs. Granted, I don't have enough LTC friends that carry, let alone non-LTC friends that carry.

As already mentioned the term "under their control" hasn't been decided in court. Right or wrong, the nature of the party probably has much to do with the likelihood of any trouble. Is everyone in the backyard with the music and hollering at an appropriate level? Or are five folks OC-ing in the front yard with a car stereo playing Milli Vanilli way too loud?

PS, Pawpaw's "Leaner to a ringer" wins. Granted this does introduce the notion of a golf type handicap. "Only had to draw and fire four times today."

[sugar land dave]

WIll alcohol be served at this BBQ party?

[ScottDLS]

As I read the thread, I think it had several digressions that are separate from CC. 1) Having a pistol in a range bag going to a CHL class does not equal CC. (yes, I suppose a person could argue about purse carry vs range bag. I'd ask for a new article about an arrest for purse carry at a CHL class.) 2) Having folks over to ones home to handle firearms does not equal CC. The question as I hear it is carrying on person. I think locke_n_loaded's "class" idea would be interesting, especially if the homeowner had any NRA or CHL certs. Granted, I don't have enough LTC friends that carry, let alone non-LTC friends that carry.

As already mentioned the term "under their control" hasn't been decided in court. Right or wrong, the nature of the party probably has much to do with the likelihood of any trouble. Is everyone in the backyard with the music and hollering at an appropriate level? Or are five folks OC-ing in the front yard with a car stereo playing Milli Vanilli way too loud?

PS, Pawpaw's "Leaner to a ringer" wins. Granted this does introduce the notion of a golf type handicap. "Only had to draw and fire four times today."

Having a pistol in a range bag "that you are carrying" DOES equal concealed carry. It's just that you don't need an LTC because you are going to/from a sporting activity.

Having people over who bring their own firearms outside their home to your home is "unlawful carry of a weapon, unless they fall in one of the 46.15 exemptions (sporting activity, LTC, traveling, etc.).

Property under your control hasn't really been defined in court, but neither has "traveling". Is the property not under your control if you're in the front vs. back yard? Or if you're playing the music too loud, or if you're a guest?

[goose]

As I read the thread, I think it had several digressions that are separate from CC. 1) Having a pistol in a range bag going to a CHL class does not equal CC. (yes, I suppose a person could argue about purse carry vs range bag. I'd ask for a new article about an arrest for purse carry at a CHL class.) 2) Having folks over to ones home to handle firearms does not equal CC. The question as I hear it is carrying on person. I think locke_n_loaded's "class" idea would be interesting, especially if the homeowner had any NRA or CHL certs. Granted, I don't have enough LTC friends that carry, let alone non-LTC friends that carry.

As already mentioned the term "under their control" hasn't been decided in court. Right or wrong, the nature of the party probably has much to do with the likelihood of any trouble. Is everyone in the backyard with the music and hollering at an appropriate level? Or are five folks OC-ing in the front yard with a car stereo playing Milli Vanilli way too loud?

PS, Pawpaw's "Leaner to a ringer" wins. Granted this does introduce the notion of a golf type handicap. "Only had to draw and fire four times today."

Having a pistol in a range bag "that you are carrying" DOES equal concealed carry. It's just that you don't need an LTC because you are going to/from a sporting activity.

Can you site that? Has that ever been proven in the law? Has there ever been a conviction? You can tell me what the Webster definition of concealed means, outta sight, yadda, yadda, but I am not buying the real world application of the term in this context. Outside of NYC, have there been a lot of folks harassed or arrested for carrying a pistol into their buddy's house? What about carrying a pistol into the gunsmith? Is that "going to/from a sporting activity?" Getting new sights put on a pistol doesn't strike me as a sporting event. It would appear not many LEO are seeing it that way either or there would be some super easy busts to be made in more liberal parts of the state/country.

Having people over who bring their own firearms outside their home to your home is "unlawful carry of a weapon, unless they fall in one of the 46.15 exemptions (sporting activity, LTC, traveling, etc.).

Again, can you site an example of this? If so, I agree we may want to give it more attention. If not, are we just discussing something that would most likely never come up unless you're caught up in a drug bust or some other sting operation? Gunsmiths, the instigators of illegal carry all over the country? Is a range bag going into a gunstore in a "may issue" state probable cause for a search? I am open to not having seen news articles on this but I would have thought the NRA and others would have raised a bigger stink if this was an issue.

Property under your control hasn't really been defined in court, but neither has "traveling". Is the property not under your control if you're in the front vs. back yard? Or if you're playing the music too loud, or if you're a guest?

I think the context raised was if you aren't the owner of the home but the owner of the home is there. The music reference was made in regards to the likelyhood of drawing attention. You did not read me making claims as to ones control being influenced by ones choice in music or its volume.

[AJSully421]

I don't know... think about a gun shop owner who allows their employees to open carry in the store - before 1/1/16.

How is it that it was legal for those employees to do that? Because the owner of the property had given their permission for those individuals to carry openly, even though it is illegal. If the owner did not have that ability, don't you think that the cops would have done something about it?

I ain't no lawyer.... but I would be extremely surprised to find out that it is not legal for a property owner to be able to give permission to another person to carry openly or concealed on their property without a license.

[cb1000rider]

In 2013 the law was changed so that failure to conceal by a CHL had to happen in public to be guilty. But you still have to have a LTC to carry a handgun except in your car or "property you control". So it still seems your guests without a LTC would violate 46.02.

Define "in public" - I've known officers to take this to mean "in view of the public" - meaning that you could be charged with a public offense in a parking lot or perhaps in a driveway. Almost everything is some form of private property.

This is probably one of those 1 in 10,000 cases, if that. I've never heard of someone being arrested, but as it reads, it's pretty restrictive.

One defense to this (in our case) is having an on-site range, so anyone who comes over without LTC could claim the "sport" exception.

[ScottDLS]

As I read the thread, I think it had several digressions that are separate from CC. 1) Having a pistol in a range bag going to a CHL class does not equal CC. (yes, I suppose a person could argue about purse carry vs range bag. I'd ask for a new article about an arrest for purse carry at a CHL class.) 2) Having folks over to ones home to handle firearms does not equal CC. The question as I hear it is carrying on person. I think locke_n_loaded's "class" idea would be interesting, especially if the homeowner had any NRA or CHL certs. Granted, I don't have enough LTC friends that carry, let alone non-LTC friends that carry.

As already mentioned the term "under their control" hasn't been decided in court. Right or wrong, the nature of the party probably has much to do with the likelihood of any trouble. Is everyone in the backyard with the music and hollering at an appropriate level? Or are five folks OC-ing in the front yard with a car stereo playing Milli Vanilli way too loud?

PS, Pawpaw's "Leaner to a ringer" wins. Granted this does introduce the notion of a golf type handicap. "Only had to draw and fire four times today."

Having a pistol in a range bag "that you are carrying" DOES equal concealed carry. It's just that you don't need an LTC because you are going to/from a sporting activity.

Can you site that? Has that ever been proven in the law? Has there ever been a conviction? You can tell me what the Webster definition of concealed means, outta sight, yadda, yadda, but I am not buying the real world application of the term in this context. Outside of NYC, have there been a lot of folks harassed or arrested for carrying a pistol into their buddy's house? What about carrying a pistol into the gunsmith? Is that "going to/from a sporting activity?" Getting new sights put on a pistol doesn't strike me as a sporting event. It would appear not many LEO are seeing it that way either or there would be some super easy busts to be made in more liberal parts of the state/country.

Having people over who bring their own firearms outside their home to your home is "unlawful carry of a weapon, unless they fall in one of the 46.15 exemptions (sporting activity, LTC, traveling, etc.).

Again, can you site an example of this? If so, I agree we may want to give it more attention. If not, are we just discussing something that would most likely never come up unless you're caught up in a drug bust or some other sting operation? Gunsmiths, the instigators of illegal carry all over the country? Is a range bag going into a gunstore in a "may issue" state probable cause for a search? I am open to not having seen news articles on this but I would have thought the NRA and others would have raised a bigger stink if this was an issue.

Property under your control hasn't really been defined in court, but neither has "traveling". Is the property not under your control if you're in the front vs. back yard? Or if you're playing the music too loud, or if you're a guest?

I think the context raised was if you aren't the owner of the home but the owner of the home is there. The music reference was made in regards to the likelyhood of drawing attention. You did not read me making claims as to ones control being influenced by ones choice in music or its volume.

1. Can you site that? - Yes

PC §46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an
offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his
or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the person is not:
(1) on the person’s own premises or premises under the person’s control;
...

Carrying a handgun in a range bag, on or about your person, off your premises is illegal, whether it's concealed or not, unless you meet one of the 46.15 exemptions or it's CONCEALED and in your car.

2. Again, can you site an example of this?

Yes. 46.02 above. Unless someone else's house is your premises or premises under your control, you can't legally carry a handgun there unless you meet one of the 46.15 criteria (LTC, sporting activity, traveling, ....)

3. I agree, the real question is as above...if you're a guest is it "premises under your control"?

[goose]

As I read the thread, I think it had several digressions that are separate from CC. 1) Having a pistol in a range bag going to a CHL class does not equal CC. (yes, I suppose a person could argue about purse carry vs range bag. I'd ask for a new article about an arrest for purse carry at a CHL class.) 2) Having folks over to ones home to handle firearms does not equal CC. The question as I hear it is carrying on person. I think locke_n_loaded's "class" idea would be interesting, especially if the homeowner had any NRA or CHL certs. Granted, I don't have enough LTC friends that carry, let alone non-LTC friends that carry.

As already mentioned the term "under their control" hasn't been decided in court. Right or wrong, the nature of the party probably has much to do with the likelihood of any trouble. Is everyone in the backyard with the music and hollering at an appropriate level? Or are five folks OC-ing in the front yard with a car stereo playing Milli Vanilli way too loud?

PS, Pawpaw's "Leaner to a ringer" wins. Granted this does introduce the notion of a golf type handicap. "Only had to draw and fire four times today."

Having a pistol in a range bag "that you are carrying" DOES equal concealed carry. It's just that you don't need an LTC because you are going to/from a sporting activity.

Can you site that? Has that ever been proven in the law? Has there ever been a conviction? You can tell me what the Webster definition of concealed means, outta sight, yadda, yadda, but I am not buying the real world application of the term in this context. Outside of NYC, have there been a lot of folks harassed or arrested for carrying a pistol into their buddy's house? What about carrying a pistol into the gunsmith? Is that "going to/from a sporting activity?" Getting new sights put on a pistol doesn't strike me as a sporting event. It would appear not many LEO are seeing it that way either or there would be some super easy busts to be made in more liberal parts of the state/country.

Having people over who bring their own firearms outside their home to your home is "unlawful carry of a weapon, unless they fall in one of the 46.15 exemptions (sporting activity, LTC, traveling, etc.).

Again, can you site an example of this? If so, I agree we may want to give it more attention. If not, are we just discussing something that would most likely never come up unless you're caught up in a drug bust or some other sting operation? Gunsmiths, the instigators of illegal carry all over the country? Is a range bag going into a gunstore in a "may issue" state probable cause for a search? I am open to not having seen news articles on this but I would have thought the NRA and others would have raised a bigger stink if this was an issue.

Property under your control hasn't really been defined in court, but neither has "traveling". Is the property not under your control if you're in the front vs. back yard? Or if you're playing the music too loud, or if you're a guest?

I think the context raised was if you aren't the owner of the home but the owner of the home is there. The music reference was made in regards to the likelyhood of drawing attention. You did not read me making claims as to ones control being influenced by ones choice in music or its volume.

1. Can you site that? - Yes

PC §46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an
offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his
or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the person is not:
(1) on the person’s own premises or premises under the person’s control;
...

Carrying a handgun in a range bag, on or about your person, off your premises is illegal, whether it's concealed or not, unless you meet one of the 46.15 exemptions or it's CONCEALED and in your car.

2. Again, can you site an example of this?

Yes. 46.02 above. Unless someone else's house is your premises or premises under your control, you can't legally carry a handgun there unless you meet one of the 46.15 criteria (LTC, sporting activity, traveling, ....)

3. I agree, the real question is as above...if you're a guest is it "premises under your control"?

1 and 2) Let me rephrase that. Can you site an instance where that statute has been interpreted and executed as you describe? Has there been an arrest? Has there been a conviction? I'll get all worried about being charged with carrying a firearm into a gun shop or my buddy's house after the FIRST incident. Until then, this is a cute exercise in unproven and/or undefined semantics.

3) Agreed.

[ScottDLS]

...
Carrying a handgun in a range bag, on or about your person, off your premises is illegal, whether it's concealed or not, unless you meet one of the 46.15 exemptions or it's CONCEALED and in your car.

2. Again, can you site an example of this?

Yes. 46.02 above. Unless someone else's house is your premises or premises under your control, you can't legally carry a handgun there unless you meet one of the 46.15 criteria (LTC, sporting activity, traveling, ....)

3. I agree, the real question is as above...if you're a guest is it "premises under your control"?

1 and 2) Let me rephrase that. Can you site an instance where that statute has been interpreted and executed as you describe? Has there been an arrest? Has there been a conviction? I'll get all worried about being charged with carrying a firearm into a gun shop or my buddy's house after the FIRST incident. Until then, this is a cute exercise in unproven and/or undefined semantics.

3) Agreed.

It's an exercise in semantics of what the law says. Generally, you may not carry a handgun in Texas off your property without a license. PC 46.02 It's a class A misdemeanor. There are a number of exceptions in 46.15. Being at your friend's barbecue is arguably not one of them.

No one has ever been charged/convicted? Maybe, but the law is quite clear. Am I worried about it? No. No more than I'm worried about a 30.06 sign that I miss and getting a class C ticket.

(---> Obligatory caveat: ScottDLS is not advocating violating the law, only saying he doesn't care about it. Goose stated he feels the 46.02 restriction against carrying at your buddy's house is semantics...so neither of us violating Forum Rule 3, just engaging in a hypothetical, on topic, legal discussion )

Now...I couldn't resist. Why is the restriction in 46.02 on carrying a handgun outside your home any different than the federal GFCZA restriction on carrying a loaded rifle in your trunk while driving past a school in the summer? Hint: It's not. They are both illegal, yet people do them daily without worrying about it. Shouldn't they fear "the ride"? What about a Federal Special Investigator with an attitude and a crusading Assistant US Attorney...

[goose]

...
Carrying a handgun in a range bag, on or about your person, off your premises is illegal, whether it's concealed or not, unless you meet one of the 46.15 exemptions or it's CONCEALED and in your car.

2. Again, can you site an example of this?

Yes. 46.02 above. Unless someone else's house is your premises or premises under your control, you can't legally carry a handgun there unless you meet one of the 46.15 criteria (LTC, sporting activity, traveling, ....)

3. I agree, the real question is as above...if you're a guest is it "premises under your control"?

1 and 2) Let me rephrase that. Can you site an instance where that statute has been interpreted and executed as you describe? Has there been an arrest? Has there been a conviction? I'll get all worried about being charged with carrying a firearm into a gun shop or my buddy's house after the FIRST incident. Until then, this is a cute exercise in unproven and/or undefined semantics.

3) Agreed.

It's an exercise in semantics of what the law says. Generally, you may not carry a handgun in Texas off your property without a license. PC 46.02 It's a class A misdemeanor. There are a number of exceptions in 46.15. Being at your friend's barbecue is arguably not one of them.

No one has ever been charged/convicted? Maybe, but the law is quite clear. Am I worried about it? No. No more than I'm worried about a 30.06 sign that I miss and getting a class C ticket.

(---> Obligatory caveat: ScottDLS is not advocating violating the law, only saying he doesn't care about it. Goose stated he feels the 46.02 restriction against carrying at your buddy's house is semantics...so neither of us violating Forum Rule 3, just engaging in a hypothetical, on topic, legal discussion )

Now...I couldn't resist. Why is the restriction in 46.02 on carrying a handgun outside your home any different than the federal GFCZA restriction on carrying a loaded rifle in your trunk while driving past a school in the summer? Hint: It's not. They are both illegal, yet people do them daily without worrying about it. Shouldn't they fear "the ride"? What about a Federal Special Investigator with an attitude and a crusading Assistant US Attorney...

The law is as clear as has been decided in the courts. You of all people know this. You have argued this point multiple times. Wouldn't you agree?

Like you, I'm not going to worry about semantics either clear or unclear that have yet to ever be interpreted by the courts such that carrying a firearm into a gunsmith or a buddy's house is illegal or considered CC. As I said, when the first occurrence of that interpretation occurs then I'll be more diligent. If someone is convicted of this in our lifetime I might even come back here and tell you that you were right. :-)

[C-dub]

It hasn't been decided in the courts because, as has been discussed in old threads on this very issue, who's going to make the complaint? If it is your house and you tell guests that they may uncover their illegally carried concealed handguns, who is going to call the police? I don't see it being very likely that someone will.

Now, what was also pointed out back before OC and would apply in this scenario because we're talking about someone without a CHL or LTC is, what gives the homeowner the right or ability to give someone permission to violate the law?

[warnmar10]

...
(---> Obligatory caveat: ScottDLS is not advocating violating the law, only saying he doesn't care about it. Goose stated he feels the 46.02 restriction against carrying at your buddy's house is semantics...so neither of us violating Forum Rule 3, just engaging in a hypothetical, on topic, legal discussion ...

Perhaps what is needed is an official list of boilerplate rejoinders corresponding to the rules. So for example instead of having to write out your obligatory caveat every time you would simply type something like "Rule 3 | Rejoinder (x)". It could work.