Verbal Notice

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imkopaka
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Verbal Notice

#1

Post by imkopaka » Sat Aug 20, 2016 10:35 am

A have a question for those more thoroughly versed in the law than I:

If I am given verbal notice that guns are not allowed in a business (thereby prohibiting open and concealed carry), how long is that notice effective?

Can I carry again next time I go? What about if the employee who informed me no longer works there? Or if the store undergoes a change of management? Is the notice good for a visit? A day? A lifetime? Whose lifetime - mine, the employee's, or the store's?

The reason I ask is based on two factors: first, I do not see anything in law specifying a time limit and it seems pretty difficult to enforce if I go to a given establishment say...once a year and I forget that notice was given (or the employee does). Second, if a business posts signs that they later remove, it is obvious that the ban on guns has been lifted, but there is no such indicator if management has a change of heart or the management changes.

This seems like an element of the law that could use some clarification. Can anyone elaborate? And if not, is there a way for an average Joe to request clarification from the AG?
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WildBill
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Re: Verbal Notice

#2

Post by WildBill » Sat Aug 20, 2016 10:58 am

imkopaka wrote:A have a question for those more thoroughly versed in the law than I:

If I am given verbal notice that guns are not allowed in a business (thereby prohibiting open and concealed carry), how long is that notice effective?
The notice is permanent. :tiphat:
Charles L. Cotton wrote:
locke_n_load wrote:So is verbal notice effective forever?
Yes.
locke_n_load wrote:I have a feeling that a business can remove a sign and then carry would be legal. What about verbal notice?
It would be, but not for anyone who received verbal notice.

Chas.
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ScottDLS
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Re: Verbal Notice

#3

Post by ScottDLS » Sat Aug 20, 2016 11:03 am

WildBill wrote:
imkopaka wrote:A have a question for those more thoroughly versed in the law than I:

If I am given verbal notice that guns are not allowed in a business (thereby prohibiting open and concealed carry), how long is that notice effective?
The notice is permanent. :tiphat:
Permanently presuming that the person who gave the notice could prove that they gave it, and that the owner still intended it to be in effect. Then the oral notice would last as long as they maintained the policy and ownership. You can't make a blanket statement that it's permanent without considering all the facts.

The case law that's been cited with regards to this relates to 30.05 trespass notice being given and a person returning to the same location, under the same ownership ~1 year later and he was convicted.
4/13/1996 Completed CHL Class, 4/16/1996 Fingerprints, Affidavits, and Application Mailed, 10/4/1996 Received CHL, renewed 1998, 2002, 2006, 2011, 2016...). "ATF... Uhhh...heh...heh....Alcohol, tobacco, and GUNS!! Cool!!!!"


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Re: Verbal Notice

#4

Post by JerryK » Sat Aug 20, 2016 4:09 pm

I tell people that "forever is a long time" Permanent is an undefined period of time! Permanent is defined by proof. Memories lapse but video lasts as long as someone can dig it up. If you get notified and it can be dug up you will not have a leg to stand on. If you get notified and a year later no one remembers you got notified, I am guessing the clock gets reset. If I was in that situation and I got notified for a second time I probably would not push the issue.

If you get notified try not to make a scene where by it would be remembered or documented. Just put your tail between your legs and walk out. It would be best for all parties involved.

Theory is fine and dandy, but practical application is what matters.

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ScottDLS
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Re: Verbal Notice

#5

Post by ScottDLS » Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:17 pm

:iagree:

Let's be realistic here. The crime is defined as entering the property (armed) when you had notice that the owner didn't want you to...If the ownership changed after you were notified that the previous owner didn't want you there...the clock would reset. If the owner changed her mind, the clock would reset...though you might not know.

If there was a sign AND you got oral notice, then the sign was taken down, is it incumbent upon you to ask if you can come back, or is it incumbent on the owner to prove she STILL didn't want you on the property (while carrying)? Bottom line, carry concealed as long as there is no sign, and you're unlikely to ever receive oral notice.
4/13/1996 Completed CHL Class, 4/16/1996 Fingerprints, Affidavits, and Application Mailed, 10/4/1996 Received CHL, renewed 1998, 2002, 2006, 2011, 2016...). "ATF... Uhhh...heh...heh....Alcohol, tobacco, and GUNS!! Cool!!!!"

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Oldgringo
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Re: Verbal Notice

#6

Post by Oldgringo » Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:41 pm

Why would anyone in CC mode receive verbal notice? Concealed is concealed, isn't it?

OTOH, OC is inviting attention which could very well result in verbal notice.

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RedRaiderCHL
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Re: Verbal Notice

#7

Post by RedRaiderCHL » Sat Aug 20, 2016 8:32 pm

The way I look at it is dependent on WHAT/HOW it is said to you when you are given the verbal notice.

If its, "hey sir, we need you to leave because we don't allow guns on the premises." then as far as I'm concerned the warning is only good for that visit. Now... that being said.. the smart and responsible carrier will heed that warning and not carry in there again. However, in my opinion that type of warning is only good for that individual encounter/visit. Think about it.. if you see a 30.06 or a 30.07 sign somewhere on Monday and then on Friday its gone.. are you gonna just assume you cant carry or are you going to carry on... I'm going to carry on.

Now if you carry somewhere and they say "hey sir, we need you to leave because we don't allow guns on the premises." and you leave and come back the next day and carry again and they remember you, then you are setting yourself up for a more stern warning.

Just be smart about it. If they notice you are carrying and ask you to leave.. leave. You probably shouldn't be giving your hard earned money to pansy anti-gun business owners who don't want you in their business to begin with.
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The Annoyed Man
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Re: Verbal Notice

#8

Post by The Annoyed Man » Sun Aug 21, 2016 6:41 pm

imkopaka wrote:If I am given verbal notice that guns are not allowed in a business (thereby prohibiting open and concealed carry), how long is that notice effective?
Until it is rescinded.
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KLB
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Re: Verbal Notice

#9

Post by KLB » Sun Aug 21, 2016 7:07 pm

You could ask if the policy still stands.


thetexan
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Re: Verbal Notice

#10

Post by thetexan » Mon Aug 22, 2016 11:32 am

Let's start with a simple test...

Let's say you come back 10 minutes later. Would you say that the notice is still in effect? Of course you would.
What about 3 hours later?
How a bout 3 days later?
Two weeks?
One year?

.06/.07 is a do not trespass notice. If I tell you not to come on my property with a gun I have permanently notified you of my desire for you not to come on my property. I need not remind you a year later. The next time I see you on my property with a gun you will be trespassing. I would think only a verbal notice reversing the original notice would undo the restriction.

Signs are like light switches...the restriction comes and goes with the presence of the sign.

That's why it isn't a good idea to open carry into a place that only has a 30.06 sign. They will surely not like you having a visible gun and most certainly will tell you not to come in with a gun, and WHAMMO!...you just got a permanent verbal notice!

tex
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Re: Verbal Notice

#11

Post by AverageJoe » Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:08 pm

imkopaka wrote:...And if not, is there a way for an average Joe to request clarification from the AG?
Don't drag me into this. :biggrinjester: I'm still in the CC laws 101 course too.


Sorry, I couldn't help my self. On a more serious note... why push the issue? There is nothing good that can come from it. Given the specificity of your questions I would venture a guess that you already have a strong suspicion of the correct answer which is that there is no case law the specifically addresses this scenario.

Are you volunteering to establish that precedent?
My posts are nothing more than opinion.


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Re: Verbal Notice

#12

Post by techenigma » Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:37 pm

So you were verbally told not to CC? We're you printing?


Will Beararms
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Re: Verbal Notice

#13

Post by Will Beararms » Tue Aug 23, 2016 5:59 am

If you don't see 30.06/30.07 then you must be given verbal notice right? I would also question why it would be needed if you are carrying concealed but just the same better safe than sorry.


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Re: Verbal Notice

#14

Post by Papa_Tiger » Tue Aug 23, 2016 6:43 am

Will Beararms wrote:If you don't see 30.06/30.07 then you must be given verbal notice right? I would also question why it would be needed if you are carrying concealed but just the same better safe than sorry.
Slight correction: 30.06/30.07 signs are verbal notice, as is a card or other document with the exact text found in TPC 30.06 (c)(3)(A) or TPC 30.07 (c)(3)(A). If they do not give you a card (or other document) and there isn't a sign posted (written communication), they must give you oral notice in order for criminal trespass to apply.

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Re: Verbal Notice

#15

Post by C-dub » Tue Aug 23, 2016 7:51 am

Papa_Tiger wrote:
Will Beararms wrote:If you don't see 30.06/30.07 then you must be given verbal notice right? I would also question why it would be needed if you are carrying concealed but just the same better safe than sorry.
Slight correction: 30.06/30.07 signs are verbal notice, as is a card or other document with the exact text found in TPC 30.06 (c)(3)(A) or TPC 30.07 (c)(3)(A). If they do not give you a card (or other document) and there isn't a sign posted (written communication), they must give you oral notice in order for criminal trespass to apply.
Some of us have been waging that battle silently in our heads for years. Some point it out as you have here. There was even a thread on it several years back.
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=46590&hilit=oral+verbal+notice
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