Am I overreacting?

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Zook
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Am I overreacting?

#1

Post by Zook » Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:19 pm

Hi everyone, new to the forum. I recently decided it was time for me to get my TLC.

I sign up for the course with an instructor that had good reviews. The instructor was subpar in my opinion, but what really got me was this. Firstly he told us if you have someone at gunpoint on the ground, and they try to get up, you can fire a “warning shot”. I was under the assumption that this is super not okay, and if you fire a “warning shot” it should be aimed at center mass. The thing that really made me feel uncomfortable was when he started pointing the “training” gun at me. I know it’s not a real firearm, but I was raised to treat anything that resembles a gun, like a gun, and to not point it at anything you don’t want to destroy. This wasn’t a muzzle sweep or something, he was full on aiming down the sights in a shooting position, going “bang bang bang”. He did it to a few other people in the room too. Needless to say I wasn’t comfortable having even something as simple as a practice gun being aimed at me, even though I knew it wasn’t real, and wasn’t going to fire. I also asked if the 3006 and 3007 signs were federally issued and the same between states, and he yelled and said “I ONLY SPEAK ABOUT TEXAS NOTHING FEDERAL IN THIS COURSE”. That’s just the worst of the stuff that went down.

So am I overreacting, or is this normal behavior?

Thanks - Z

Edit: He also went over the entire test before we took it and gave us all the answers. That doesn’t make any sense to me.
Last edited by Zook on Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I’d rather be judged by 12, than carried by 6.


flechero
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Re: Am I overreacting?

#2

Post by flechero » Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:23 pm

The instructor was subpar in my opinion
I share your opinion.


RicoTX
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Re: Am I overreacting?

#3

Post by RicoTX » Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:25 pm

Sorry you had a bad experience. This forum is full of useful information from knowledgeable folks. Take the time to read a lot of posts, and I guarantee you will learn a lot.

Oh...welcome to the forum!
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Topic author
Zook
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Re: Am I overreacting?

#4

Post by Zook » Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:27 pm

RicoTX wrote:Sorry you had a bad experience. This forum is full of useful information from knowledgeable folks. Take the time to read a lot of posts, and I guarantee you will learn a lot.

Oh...welcome to the forum!

Thank you, I’ve been reading this forum like crazy. I’d go as far to say I’ve learned more here than I did in my course.
I’d rather be judged by 12, than carried by 6.

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TexasJohnBoy
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Re: Am I overreacting?

#5

Post by TexasJohnBoy » Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:30 pm

Zook wrote:Hi everyone, new to the forum. I recently decided it was time for me to get my TLC.

I sign up for the course with an instructor that had good reviews. The instructor was subpar in my opinion, but what really got me was this. Firstly he told us if you have someone at gunpoint on the ground, and they try to get up, you can fire a “warning shot”.

Never do this.
Zook wrote:I was under the assumption that this is super not okay, and if you fire a “warning shot” it should be aimed at center mass.

It's not a warning shot if you're aiming center mass...
Zook wrote: The thing that really made me feel uncomfortable was when he started pointing the “training” gun at me. I know it’s not a real firearm, but I was raised to treat anything that resembles a gun, like a gun, and to not point it at anything you don’t want to destroy.

IMO, you are correct.
Zook wrote:This wasn’t a muzzle sweep or something, he was full on aiming down the sights in a shooting position, going “bang bang bang”. He did it to a few other people in the room too. Needless to say I wasn’t comfortable having even something as simple as a practice gun being aimed at me, even though I knew it wasn’t real, and wasn’t going to fire. I also asked if the 3006 and 3007 signs were federally issued and the same between states, and he yelled and said “I ONLY SPEAK ABOUT TEXAS NOTHING FEDERAL IN THIS COURSE”.

30.06 and 30.07 signs are unique to Texas and are defined in PC30.06 and 30.07: http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... /PE.30.htm
Zook wrote:That’s just the worst of the stuff that went down.

So am I overreacting, or is this normal behavior?

Thanks - Z
It does seem like that guy wasn't exactly on his game. Learn from it and move on I say. Welcome to the forum and welcome to the club!
TSRA Member since 5/30/15; NRA Member since 10/31/14


Topic author
Zook
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Re: Am I overreacting?

#6

Post by Zook » Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:45 pm

Zook wrote:I was under the assumption that this is super not okay, and if you fire a “warning shot” it should be aimed at center mass.

It's not a warning shot if you're aiming center mass...

Exactly.

Thanks I’m gonna be sticking around here for the foreseeable future.
I’d rather be judged by 12, than carried by 6.


bblhd672
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Re: Am I overreacting?

#7

Post by bblhd672 » Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:47 pm

An instructor who says you should fire a warning shot into the ground is dangerous (nicest forum friendly word that came to mind) and shouldn’t be teaching anything more than house breaking chihuahuas.

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Jusme
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Re: Am I overreacting?

#8

Post by Jusme » Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:55 pm

bblhd672 wrote:An instructor who says you should fire a warning shot into the ground is dangerous (nicest forum friendly word that came to mind) and shouldn’t be teaching anything more than house breaking chihuahuas.
Maybe, but I wouldn't buy a Chihuahua, he trained!

Welcome to the forum, like others stated, you were subjected to a more than just sub par, LTC instructor. I would report all of this to the DPS, to help prevent others, from receiving bad info. Like any other group of people, there are bad apples in every bunch. Anyone who advocates, a "warning shot" under any circumstances, should not be certified to teach. JMHO
Take away the Second first, and the First is gone in a second :rules: :patriot:


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Zook
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Re: Am I overreacting?

#9

Post by Zook » Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:12 pm

Jusme wrote:
bblhd672 wrote:An instructor who says you should fire a warning shot into the ground is dangerous (nicest forum friendly word that came to mind) and shouldn’t be teaching anything more than house breaking chihuahuas.
Maybe, but I wouldn't buy a Chihuahua, he trained!

Welcome to the forum, like others stated, you were subjected to a more than just sub par, LTC instructor. I would report all of this to the DPS, to help prevent others, from receiving bad info. Like any other group of people, there are bad apples in every bunch. Anyone who advocates, a "warning shot" under any circumstances, should not be certified to teach. JMHO
Thanks! I will definitely report him. He also is a FFL and was trying to push gun sales on us. I just feel bad for people who were in the course who might not have known much about weapons/legal stuff. I’ve grown up around guns hunting etc... and TLC carriers so I knew a lot of stuff he was spewing out of his mouth was incorrect.
I’d rather be judged by 12, than carried by 6.

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Pawpaw
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Re: Am I overreacting?

#10

Post by Pawpaw » Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:24 pm

Zook wrote:
RicoTX wrote:Sorry you had a bad experience. This forum is full of useful information from knowledgeable folks. Take the time to read a lot of posts, and I guarantee you will learn a lot.

Oh...welcome to the forum!

Thank you, I’ve been reading this forum like crazy. I’d go as far to say I’ve learned more here than I did in my course.
We all did, no matter how good our instructor was. We go farther in-depth than any instructor could ever hope to in the allotted time.

One thing is for certain... You're much smarter than your instructor.

Welcome!
Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence. - John Adams

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JustSomeOldGuy
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Re: Am I overreacting?

#11

Post by JustSomeOldGuy » Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:48 am

Not overreacting. Your instructor was a dolt.

Two problems with warning shots.
1) Cooper Rules 2 & 4; where's that warning shot going? I don't know and probably neither to you in the heat of the moment. Anytime you don't have control over what the bullet's final stopping place will be, you have the potential for unbelievable tragedy. On reflection, warning shots are a violation of Cooper Rule #3 as well.
2) Use of defensive deadly force implies that you were in immediate danger of demise or serious bodily injury. Warning shots open up the opportunity for DA's and plaintiff's attorneys to question the immediate danger part. You had time to fire a shot specifically NOT at the threat; having done so implies you did NOT see the threat as immediate, else you would have engaged it.
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MaduroBU
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Re: Am I overreacting?

#12

Post by MaduroBU » Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:46 am

I had an amazing instructor (he turned me on to this website and used to be very active here), and he was of the opinion that your weapon should leave its holster if and only if you will immediately fire to incapacitation.

I strongly agree with that sentiment, and have adopted it as my own. I believe that as we are not peace officers, if we have the time to avoid shooting, we should be using the opportunity to escape the situation.

Warning shots, threats with guns, holding at gunpoint, et c. all seem to me to open the door to massive liability and subjective (read "subject to the jurors prejudices") evaulation in a court of law.


Richbirdhunter
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Re: Am I overreacting?

#13

Post by Richbirdhunter » Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:38 am

Some of the best lessons I’ve ever learned from a professional instructor is not to follow their advice.
Disclaimer: Anything I state can not be applied to 100% of all situations. Sometimes it's ok to speak in general terms.

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Middle Age Russ
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Re: Am I overreacting?

#14

Post by Middle Age Russ » Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:24 am

Not overreacting. Your instructor was a dolt.

Two problems with warning shots.
1) Cooper Rules 2 & 4; where's that warning shot going? I don't know and probably neither to you in the heat of the moment. Anytime you don't have control over what the bullet's final stopping place will be, you have the potential for unbelievable tragedy. On reflection, warning shots are a violation of Cooper Rule #3 as well.
2) Use of defensive deadly force implies that you were in immediate danger of demise or serious bodily injury. Warning shots open up the opportunity for DA's and plaintiff's attorneys to question the immediate danger part. You had time to fire a shot specifically NOT at the threat; having done so implies you did NOT see the threat as immediate, else you would have engaged it.
In general, any time there is a question regarding use of a firearm and the answer is "I don't know" it is a good time to stop, assess and (re)evaluate the situation. This goes for questions of functionality, terminal ballistics, firearms/ammunition failures, etc...

OP, you are not over-reacting. Your instructor is not the one responsible for projectiles leaving your guns -- you are. I am glad you've sought other input (hopefully brighter minds as well) to inform your decisions.
Russ
Stay aware and engaged. Awareness buys time; time buys options. Survival may require moving quickly past the Observe, Orient and Decide steps to ACT.
NRA Life Member, CRSO, Basic Pistol, PPITH & PPOTH Instructor, Texas 4-H Certified Pistol & Rifle Coach, Texas LTC Instructor


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Re: Am I overreacting?

#15

Post by twomillenium » Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:13 am

The only warning shot I agree with, is the one shot from a starters pistol. That shot warns the participants that it they don't go now, then they probably are not going to win the race.

BTW, welcome to the forum. I am an active LTC instructor, we only have a 4-6 hours to teach the course. I can guarantee that if you regularly read this forum that you will definitely learn more here than in a 4-6 hour class, even if it was given by the best instructors in the state. It is the responsibility of the LTC holder or even the firearm owner, to learn and keep learning. Laws and such things are ever changing but safety does not.

Unless that instructor was teaching or saying something contrary to law, I don't know what the DPS can do. Be thorough in your complaint, at least that instructor might have his class audited.
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