Purchased a gun for a friend

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Scott B.
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Re: Purchased a gun for a friend

#46

Post by Scott B. » Thu May 10, 2018 10:49 pm

The whole thing <is less than optimal> to keep it forum friendly.

if you made the decision to sell the firearm before the purchase and you've recorded that intent somewhere...well that's not good. But you can sell your firearms anytime after you purchase it, be it 30 seconds, a day, or whenever. There's no time limit, just a notation about you can't be in the business of selling firearms without a license. What constitutes "in the business" is up to the ATF.

Straw purchase used to be cut and dry. The classic guy and gal walk in. He fingers the gun of his choice, perhaps engages salesperson about the firearm, comes time to do the deed and it's, "oh, my girlfriend/wife/baby momma will do the paperwork." Yeah, goodbye.

Hours or days later, another person walks in to buy same gun and original moron is out in the parking lot waiting for it or directing them on the phone. Goodbye.

In my shop we don't see that thankfully.

Instead, we might get a person, female, who comes in to get a firearm usually thru transfer who has zero interest in the firearm itself. Doesn't want to inspect it or really even touch it. Pass background check and off they go. They haven't said or done anything wrong and you're left wondering, was that a straw purchase?

If you pass the background check, it should be fine. In that respect I agree with the dissent opinion.

There are so many rules and regulations, and more each hour, that just about everybody is a potential criminal if some authority somewhere wants to make an example of you.
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Deitz83
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Re: Purchased a gun for a friend

#47

Post by Deitz83 » Fri May 11, 2018 6:18 am

Wow! Some questions should not placed on a public site that is used by the media to quote. Good luck!

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RoyGBiv
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Re: Purchased a gun for a friend

#48

Post by RoyGBiv » Fri May 11, 2018 6:40 am

apostate wrote:If I take possession of a firearm, and a credit card company pays the seller, and I later reimburse the credit card company, I'm still the actual purchaser. I think. :headscratch
Logic has no place in this discussion. :mrgreen:

Seriously, now. Unless the friend who has already promised to repay the OP is the person who files the original 4473, I believe (my opinion here) that it would be considered a straw purchase. This despite Scalias dissent.
I am not a lawyer. This is NOT legal advice.!
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striker55
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Re: Purchased a gun for a friend

#49

Post by striker55 » Fri May 11, 2018 6:49 am

I'm a law abiding citizen, don't even have any tickets. Never throw garbage out of my windows, help my neighbors, polite and courteous. Doing a friend a favor, didn't think it would be a problem, wanted to get good advice and do the right thing. Evidently in this day and age you're better off keeping your mouth shut. I've deleted my Facebook account weeks ago and now I'm in limbo. Mouth shut, eyes forward.


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Re: Purchased a gun for a friend

#50

Post by apostate » Fri May 11, 2018 7:59 am

RoyGBiv wrote:
apostate wrote:If I take possession of a firearm, and a credit card company pays the seller, and I later reimburse the credit card company, I'm still the actual purchaser. I think. :headscratch
Logic has no place in this discussion. :mrgreen:

Seriously, now. Unless the friend who has already promised to repay the OP is the person who files the original 4473, I believe (my opinion here) that it would be considered a straw purchase. This despite Scalias dissent.
To be clear, I'm saying I don't see what law is broken if the friend is the one who picks up the gun, completes the 4473, and keeps the gun. If the OP doesn't do a 4473, how can he be lying on a 4473? If the friend does the 4473 and keeps the gun, how can he be lying on a 4473?
I'm too old for this...

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ScottDLS
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Re: Purchased a gun for a friend

#51

Post by ScottDLS » Fri May 11, 2018 8:42 am

apostate wrote:
RoyGBiv wrote:
apostate wrote:If I take possession of a firearm, and a credit card company pays the seller, and I later reimburse the credit card company, I'm still the actual purchaser. I think. :headscratch
Logic has no place in this discussion. :mrgreen:

Seriously, now. Unless the friend who has already promised to repay the OP is the person who files the original 4473, I believe (my opinion here) that it would be considered a straw purchase. This despite Scalias dissent.
To be clear, I'm saying I don't see what law is broken if the friend is the one who picks up the gun, completes the 4473, and keeps the gun. If the OP doesn't do a 4473, how can he be lying on a 4473? If the friend does the 4473 and keeps the gun, how can he be lying on a 4473?
You are correct. This is the right way to do it. The auction site, payment, and notation on the auction slip are irrelevant. The auction FFL transfers the gun to the local FFL. Who paid and what credit card etc. etc. are irrelevant. What is relevant is that the person that receives the transfer from the local FFL is the end user of the gun. If a few days later he decides to sell it fine. But when he picks it up he intends to use it himself.
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Re: Purchased a gun for a friend

#52

Post by cyphertext » Fri May 11, 2018 8:50 am

apostate wrote:
RoyGBiv wrote:
apostate wrote:If I take possession of a firearm, and a credit card company pays the seller, and I later reimburse the credit card company, I'm still the actual purchaser. I think. :headscratch
Logic has no place in this discussion. :mrgreen:

Seriously, now. Unless the friend who has already promised to repay the OP is the person who files the original 4473, I believe (my opinion here) that it would be considered a straw purchase. This despite Scalias dissent.
To be clear, I'm saying I don't see what law is broken if the friend is the one who picks up the gun, completes the 4473, and keeps the gun. If the OP doesn't do a 4473, how can he be lying on a 4473? If the friend does the 4473 and keeps the gun, how can he be lying on a 4473?
Because the friend is not the one who paid for it. The OP paid for the gun. The form states "transferee/buyer". If you take out the internet part and look at it like these two guys walked into a brick and mortar store, the sale should be stopped... one guy paying and another filling out the 4473...

It matches the scenario used in the instructions on for question 11.a Actual Transferee/Buyer. Taken step by step...

"Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith (who may or may not be a prohibited person). Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. - OP purchased gun through gunbroker for a friend because auction was ending and friend did not have an account on gun broker. Friend was going to reimburse OP.

Mr. Jones is not the ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER of the firearm and must answer "NO" to question 11.a. The licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones. - OP started the transaction, his name is on the receipt, he is the one who should be doing the paperwork. The firearm came to the FFL for the OP, not friend.

Would you transfer it in this situation? Firearm is sent to you to do the paperwork. It says it was ordered by Mr. Jones, but Mr. Smith comes in to pick it up and do the paperwork?


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Re: Purchased a gun for a friend

#53

Post by cyphertext » Fri May 11, 2018 8:52 am

ScottDLS wrote:
You are correct. This is the right way to do it. The auction site, payment, and notation on the auction slip are irrelevant. The auction FFL transfers the gun to the local FFL. Who paid and what credit card etc. etc. are irrelevant. What is relevant is that the person that receives the transfer from the local FFL is the end user of the gun. If a few days later he decides to sell it fine. But when he picks it up he intends to use it himself.
Payment is not irrelevant. Go look at the 4473. "Actual transferee/Buyer" is how it is listed. You aren't the actual buyer if you aren't the one paying for it. This scenario is outlined in the examples as well.


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Re: Purchased a gun for a friend

#54

Post by WTR » Fri May 11, 2018 9:08 am

I was buying a fairly expensive rifle from a LGS. I asked if they knew where I could have engraving done as the rifle was going to be a gift to a friend who had come to my aid when I was incompacitated. The LGS refused to sell me the rifle to me. So......keep your mouth closed.


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Re: Purchased a gun for a friend

#55

Post by apostate » Fri May 11, 2018 9:13 am

apostate wrote:To be clear, I'm saying I don't see what law is broken if the friend is the one who picks up the gun, completes the 4473, and keeps the gun. If the OP doesn't do a 4473, how can he be lying on a 4473? If the friend does the 4473 and keeps the gun, how can he be lying on a 4473?
cyphertext wrote: "Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith (who may or may not be a prohibited person). Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. - OP purchased gun through gunbroker for a friend because auction was ending and friend did not have an account on gun broker. Friend was going to reimburse OP.

Mr. Jones is not the ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER of the firearm and must answer "NO" to question 11.a. The licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones.
Correct. Mr. Smith (friend) is the actual transferee/buyer and can truthfully say so on the 4473.

As I said, "If the friend does the 4473 and keeps the gun, how can he be lying on a 4473?"
I'm too old for this...


flechero
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Re: Purchased a gun for a friend

#56

Post by flechero » Fri May 11, 2018 9:16 am

Can this scenario work?

Can the OP refuse the gun, as it may not pass his keen eye for inspection. And then the friend look it over and buy it, if ok to him?


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Re: Purchased a gun for a friend

#57

Post by cyphertext » Fri May 11, 2018 9:22 am

apostate wrote:
apostate wrote:To be clear, I'm saying I don't see what law is broken if the friend is the one who picks up the gun, completes the 4473, and keeps the gun. If the OP doesn't do a 4473, how can he be lying on a 4473? If the friend does the 4473 and keeps the gun, how can he be lying on a 4473?
cyphertext wrote: "Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith (who may or may not be a prohibited person). Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. - OP purchased gun through gunbroker for a friend because auction was ending and friend did not have an account on gun broker. Friend was going to reimburse OP.

Mr. Jones is not the ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER of the firearm and must answer "NO" to question 11.a. The licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones.
Correct. Mr. Smith (friend) is the actual transferee/buyer and can truthfully say so on the 4473.

As I said, "If the friend does the 4473 and keeps the gun, how can he be lying on a 4473?"
But his name is not the name on the credit card or any purchase paperwork that the seller has... The name on the credit card receipt should match the name on the form. Otherwise you have no clue who is doing what as the FFL.

Again I ask, would you complete the transfer?

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Re: Purchased a gun for a friend

#58

Post by PriestTheRunner » Fri May 11, 2018 9:51 am

cyphertext wrote:
apostate wrote:
apostate wrote:To be clear, I'm saying I don't see what law is broken if the friend is the one who picks up the gun, completes the 4473, and keeps the gun. If the OP doesn't do a 4473, how can he be lying on a 4473? If the friend does the 4473 and keeps the gun, how can he be lying on a 4473?
cyphertext wrote: "Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith (who may or may not be a prohibited person). Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. - OP purchased gun through gunbroker for a friend because auction was ending and friend did not have an account on gun broker. Friend was going to reimburse OP.

Mr. Jones is not the ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER of the firearm and must answer "NO" to question 11.a. The licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones.
Correct. Mr. Smith (friend) is the actual transferee/buyer and can truthfully say so on the 4473.

As I said, "If the friend does the 4473 and keeps the gun, how can he be lying on a 4473?"
But his name is not the name on the credit card or any purchase paperwork that the seller has... The name on the credit card receipt should match the name on the form. Otherwise you have no clue who is doing what as the FFL.

Again I ask, would you complete the transfer?
Thats why I said the FFL would not want to complete the transfer. It has come to his shop under one name - the name that paid for it - anyone else doing the 4473 should throw up major red flags immediately. If I were the FFL, I wouldn't proceed unless the sending FFL updated the information. Even then I might not complete the transfer.

That being said, if the transferring FFL is of with 'Friend' filling out the 4473 (which I wouldn't be) then its legal. If OP gifts the firearm to friend, then it is legal. Those are the only two options at this point.

Like it or not, that is how screwed over we were by the Abramski result. IMO, he tried to do everything legally (AND EVEN RE-TRANSFERRED TO 'FRIEND' (Uncle) THROUGH A FFL!!!) and still got burned.

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Re: Purchased a gun for a friend

#59

Post by RoyGBiv » Fri May 11, 2018 10:07 am

ScottDLS wrote:
apostate wrote:
RoyGBiv wrote:
apostate wrote:If I take possession of a firearm, and a credit card company pays the seller, and I later reimburse the credit card company, I'm still the actual purchaser. I think. :headscratch
Logic has no place in this discussion. :mrgreen:

Seriously, now. Unless the friend who has already promised to repay the OP is the person who files the original 4473, I believe (my opinion here) that it would be considered a straw purchase. This despite Scalias dissent.
To be clear, I'm saying I don't see what law is broken if the friend is the one who picks up the gun, completes the 4473, and keeps the gun. If the OP doesn't do a 4473, how can he be lying on a 4473? If the friend does the 4473 and keeps the gun, how can he be lying on a 4473?
You are correct. This is the right way to do it. The auction site, payment, and notation on the auction slip are irrelevant. The auction FFL transfers the gun to the local FFL. Who paid and what credit card etc. etc. are irrelevant. What is relevant is that the person that receives the transfer from the local FFL is the end user of the gun. If a few days later he decides to sell it fine. But when he picks it up he intends to use it himself.
I would concur with both of you.....
The only complication is whether there's paperwork from the auction seller with the OP's name on it that causes the FFL to balk. If the "friend" is the source of the funds for the purchase and the friend files the 4473 as the transferee, I don't see how that would be illegal. The OP never takes possession and never has to file a 4473 for the gun.

If I walk in to a LGS with my friend and pay for a handgun, can my friend file the 4473 and take possession?
Does it matter whether he plans to pay me back when we get home?
Seems to me this is perfectly legal.

I am not a lawyer. Just my opinion.
I am not a lawyer. This is NOT legal advice.!
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cyphertext
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Re: Purchased a gun for a friend

#60

Post by cyphertext » Fri May 11, 2018 10:17 am

RoyGBiv wrote: I would concur with both of you.....
The only complication is whether there's paperwork from the auction seller with the OP's name on it that causes the FFL to balk. If the "friend" is the source of the funds for the purchase and the friend files the 4473 as the transferee, I don't see how that would be illegal. The OP never takes possession and never has to file a 4473 for the gun.

If I walk in to a LGS with my friend and pay for a handgun, can my friend file the 4473 and take possession?
Does it matter whether he plans to pay me back when we get home?
Seems to me this is perfectly legal.

I am not a lawyer. Just my opinion.
That's where I have the issue... paperwork from auction has one name on it and another person wants to do the 4473. As the FFL, I have no idea who is who and should not complete the transfer.

No, If you pay for the handgun at the LGS, you must be the one doing the paperwork. Again, it looks like a straw sale since you are paying but the friend is doing the paperwork. As the FFL, I have no way of knowing that the friend is going to pay you back, or why you are doing this... From what I can see you are paying for the gun but someone else is doing the paperwork. I'm going to err on the side of caution and assume that you are not doing the paperwork because you can not pass the background check.

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