Liberty County Building - Posted

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Jusme
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Re: Liberty County Building - Posted

#31

Post by Jusme »

Serious question here: What is it about the threshold of a courtroom that turns level headed men and women into murderers?

If we can't be trusted to carry in a courtroom, how can we be trusted to carry anywhere?
If we can be trusted to carry just about anywhere else, why can't we be trusted to carry in a courtroom?


Exactly. And furthermore, as I and others have stated, if LTC holders, or anyone for that matter, wanted to settle things with violence, due to the outcome of a court case, they could easily do so, outside of the courtroom now. As a former LEO, I have seen several court cases. and while I never witnessed, any violent outbursts, I have seen them on TV. But none of those instances, involved, a LTC holder.
I'm in agreement, with Papa_Tiger, stressful situations occur, daily, and not just in courtrooms. But, LTC holders, have more than proven themselves, to be able to handle stress, and still not resort to using their guns, irresponsibly.
Also, since, there is only about 4% of the 21 and older population, that have an LTC, the number of LTC holders, in any courtroom, would be very minuscule.

I understand your point, that you are afraid, that one bad apple, will cause a retraction, or removal, of locations, LTC holders may carry, but those fears, postulated, by the left, have not come to fruition, anywhere else. And since courtrooms, are government, buildings, they should be treated the same way as, the State Capitol, and any other government building. JMHO
Take away the Second first, and the First is gone in a second :rules: :patriot:

WTR
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Re: Liberty County Building - Posted

#32

Post by WTR »

I read satistically that LTC holders commit less crime than commissioned Law Enforceent Officers. Therefore, what is the rational for allowing a LEO to carry and not a LTC holder?
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PriestTheRunner
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Re: Liberty County Building - Posted

#33

Post by PriestTheRunner »

I'm still waiting for an LTC'er to do something illegal in the capital... If we don't break the laws there, I doubt we will break them anywhere.

If you are going to assassinate a witness for a relative or the prosecutor (or really anybody), it is just as easy to wait outside.
It is simply security theater.

Now, if constitutional carry is passed I am all for restricting of weapons by persons not licensed in courtrooms.

:txflag:

WildRose
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Re: Liberty County Building - Posted

#34

Post by WildRose »

Jusme wrote: Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:49 am Serious question here: What is it about the threshold of a courtroom that turns level headed men and women into murderers?

If we can't be trusted to carry in a courtroom, how can we be trusted to carry anywhere?
If we can be trusted to carry just about anywhere else, why can't we be trusted to carry in a courtroom?


Exactly. And furthermore, as I and others have stated, if LTC holders, or anyone for that matter, wanted to settle things with violence, due to the outcome of a court case, they could easily do so, outside of the courtroom now. As a former LEO, I have seen several court cases. and while I never witnessed, any violent outbursts, I have seen them on TV. But none of those instances, involved, a LTC holder.
I'm in agreement, with Papa_Tiger, stressful situations occur, daily, and not just in courtrooms. But, LTC holders, have more than proven themselves, to be able to handle stress, and still not resort to using their guns, irresponsibly.
Also, since, there is only about 4% of the 21 and older population, that have an LTC, the number of LTC holders, in any courtroom, would be very minuscule.

I understand your point, that you are afraid, that one bad apple, will cause a retraction, or removal, of locations, LTC holders may carry, but those fears, postulated, by the left, have not come to fruition, anywhere else. And since courtrooms, are government, buildings, they should be treated the same way as, the State Capitol, and any other government building. JMHO
Who said anything about "most people"? It certainly wasn't me.

All it would take is one.
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Re: Liberty County Building - Posted

#35

Post by WildRose »

WTR wrote: Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:46 am I read satistically that LTC holders commit less crime than commissioned Law Enforceent Officers. Therefore, what is the rational for allowing a LEO to carry and not a LTC holder?
You're correct, you'e about 100x more likely to be unlawfully shot by a cop than a person carrying under LTC.

The fact however is that it is their job as peace officers to carry and to maintain the peace wherever they are.

They are under direct control and responsibility of the state, we are not.
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Without The First and Second Amendments the rest are meaningless.

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Re: Liberty County Building - Posted

#36

Post by WildRose »

PriestTheRunner wrote: Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:14 am I'm still waiting for an LTC'er to do something illegal in the capital... If we don't break the laws there, I doubt we will break them anywhere.

If you are going to assassinate a witness for a relative or the prosecutor (or really anybody), it is just as easy to wait outside.
It is simply security theater.

Now, if constitutional carry is passed I am all for restricting of weapons by persons not licensed in courtrooms.

:txflag:
No, it's a matter of making the courtroom as safe as it can be so the business of the state can be done without intimidation or attack. It's also about eliminating the risk of someone just losing it and acting out with a firearm when they do so.

Witnesses, defendants, judges, juries, prosecutors and defense teams would all be at much higher risk and that kind of knowledge is very intimidating.

Yes, bad acts can happen once they leave but at least in that environment they have a reasonable level of security if the public cannot legally be armed in the courtroom.
NRA Life Member NRA Certified Instructor RSO, CRSO,
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TX LTC licensed Instructor Personal/Family Protection and Self Defense Instructor.
Without The First and Second Amendments the rest are meaningless.
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Jusme
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Re: Liberty County Building - Posted

#37

Post by Jusme »

WildRose wrote: Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:20 am
PriestTheRunner wrote: Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:14 am I'm still waiting for an LTC'er to do something illegal in the capital... If we don't break the laws there, I doubt we will break them anywhere.

If you are going to assassinate a witness for a relative or the prosecutor (or really anybody), it is just as easy to wait outside.
It is simply security theater.

Now, if constitutional carry is passed I am all for restricting of weapons by persons not licensed in courtrooms.

:txflag:
No, it's a matter of making the courtroom as safe as it can be so the business of the state can be done without intimidation or attack. It's also about eliminating the risk of someone just losing it and acting out with a firearm when they do so.

Witnesses, defendants, judges, juries, prosecutors and defense teams would all be at much higher risk and that kind of knowledge is very intimidating.

Yes, bad acts can happen once they leave but at least in that environment they have a reasonable level of security if the public cannot legally be armed in the courtroom.


Replace the word judges, with professors, the words jurors, with students, and you have just given the exact same argument UT professors gave for trying to ban campus carry.
Take away the Second first, and the First is gone in a second :rules: :patriot:

WTR
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Re: Liberty County Building - Posted

#38

Post by WTR »

WildRose wrote: Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:17 am
WTR wrote: Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:46 am I read satistically that LTC holders commit less crime than commissioned Law Enforceent Officers. Therefore, what is the rational for allowing a LEO to carry and not a LTC holder?
You're correct, you'e about 100x more likely to be unlawfully shot by a cop than a person carrying under LTC.

The fact however is that it is their job as peace officers to carry and to maintain the peace wherever they are.

They are under direct control and responsibility of the state, we are not.

Why, if an LTC holder is shown to be more lawfull than a LEO, would a LTC holder be more likely than a LEO to unlawfully discharge a weapon inside a courtroom?

Soccerdad1995
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Re: Liberty County Building - Posted

#39

Post by Soccerdad1995 »

WildRose wrote: Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:20 am
PriestTheRunner wrote: Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:14 am I'm still waiting for an LTC'er to do something illegal in the capital... If we don't break the laws there, I doubt we will break them anywhere.

If you are going to assassinate a witness for a relative or the prosecutor (or really anybody), it is just as easy to wait outside.
It is simply security theater.

Now, if constitutional carry is passed I am all for restricting of weapons by persons not licensed in courtrooms.

:txflag:
No, it's a matter of making the courtroom as safe as it can be so the business of the state can be done without intimidation or attack. It's also about eliminating the risk of someone just losing it and acting out with a firearm when they do so.

Witnesses, defendants, judges, juries, prosecutors and defense teams would all be at much higher risk and that kind of knowledge is very intimidating.

Yes, bad acts can happen once they leave but at least in that environment they have a reasonable level of security if the public cannot legally be armed in the courtroom.
Do you have any evidence to support your claim that "Witnesses, defendants, juries, prosecutors and defense teams would all be at much higher risk" or is this just baseless speculation on your part? All evidence supports the fact that no one is at a "much higher risk" in the presence of an armed LTC holder, because this group of people commits very few crimes. If anything, the presence of an LTC holder, in place of a random non-licensed person, would reduce the risk to everyone in the court room.

But if your goal is to blindly "make the courtroom as safe as it can be" without regard to anyone's rights, then no one should be allowed in the audience, or indeed within 1,000 feet of the building unless they are part of the proceedings, and we should put everyone, including the judge, in straight jackets. Fortunately, your stated goal is NOT reality, however.

Absent an actual rational reason for this infringement on our basic human rights, we should allow LTC holders to carry in courtrooms, IMHO.
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Re: Liberty County Building - Posted

#40

Post by allisji »

Soccerdad1995 wrote: Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:30 pm
WildRose wrote: Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:20 am
PriestTheRunner wrote: Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:14 am I'm still waiting for an LTC'er to do something illegal in the capital... If we don't break the laws there, I doubt we will break them anywhere.

If you are going to assassinate a witness for a relative or the prosecutor (or really anybody), it is just as easy to wait outside.
It is simply security theater.

Now, if constitutional carry is passed I am all for restricting of weapons by persons not licensed in courtrooms.

:txflag:
Witnesses, defendants, judges, juries, prosecutors and defense teams would all be at much higher risk and that kind of knowledge is very intimidating.

Do you have any evidence to support your claim that "Witnesses, defendants, juries, prosecutors and defense teams would all be at much higher risk" or is this just baseless speculation on your part? All evidence supports the fact that no one is at a "much higher risk" in the presence of an armed LTC holder, because this group of people commits very few crimes. If anything, the presence of an LTC holder, in place of a random non-licensed person, would reduce the risk to everyone in the court room.

But if your goal is to blindly "make the courtroom as safe as it can be" without regard to anyone's rights, then no one should be allowed in the audience, or indeed within 1,000 feet of the building unless they are part of the proceedings, and we should put everyone, including the judge, in straight jackets. Fortunately, your stated goal is NOT reality, however.

Absent an actual rational reason for this infringement on our basic human rights, we should allow LTC holders to carry in courtrooms, IMHO.
:iagree:
Jusme wrote: Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:34 am



Replace the word judges, with professors, the words jurors, with students, and you have just given the exact same argument UT professors gave for trying to ban campus carry.
:iagree:
LTC since 2015
I have contacted my state legislators urging support of Constitutional Carry Legislation HB 1927

WildRose
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Re: Liberty County Building - Posted

#41

Post by WildRose »

Soccerdad1995 wrote: Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:30 pm
WildRose wrote: Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:20 am
PriestTheRunner wrote: Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:14 am I'm still waiting for an LTC'er to do something illegal in the capital... If we don't break the laws there, I doubt we will break them anywhere.

If you are going to assassinate a witness for a relative or the prosecutor (or really anybody), it is just as easy to wait outside.
It is simply security theater.

Now, if constitutional carry is passed I am all for restricting of weapons by persons not licensed in courtrooms.

:txflag:
No, it's a matter of making the courtroom as safe as it can be so the business of the state can be done without intimidation or attack. It's also about eliminating the risk of someone just losing it and acting out with a firearm when they do so.

Witnesses, defendants, judges, juries, prosecutors and defense teams would all be at much higher risk and that kind of knowledge is very intimidating.

Yes, bad acts can happen once they leave but at least in that environment they have a reasonable level of security if the public cannot legally be armed in the courtroom.
Do you have any evidence to support your claim that "Witnesses, defendants, juries, prosecutors and defense teams would all be at much higher risk" or is this just baseless speculation on your part? All evidence supports the fact that no one is at a "much higher risk" in the presence of an armed LTC holder, because this group of people commits very few crimes. If anything, the presence of an LTC holder, in place of a random non-licensed person, would reduce the risk to everyone in the court room.

But if your goal is to blindly "make the courtroom as safe as it can be" without regard to anyone's rights, then no one should be allowed in the audience, or indeed within 1,000 feet of the building unless they are part of the proceedings, and we should put everyone, including the judge, in straight jackets. Fortunately, your stated goal is NOT reality, however.

Absent an actual rational reason for this infringement on our basic human rights, we should allow LTC holders to carry in courtrooms, IMHO.
There is no basic human right to be armed in a courtroom, never has been. If there were, we could not even disarm defendants at trial prior to conviction.

Your rights end where they collide with the rights of others and the ability of the courts to conduct business in our name.

The extremist point of view never gains us any favor with the general public, it only works against us.
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Without The First and Second Amendments the rest are meaningless.

WildRose
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Re: Liberty County Building - Posted

#42

Post by WildRose »

Jusme wrote: Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:34 am
WildRose wrote: Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:20 am
PriestTheRunner wrote: Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:14 am I'm still waiting for an LTC'er to do something illegal in the capital... If we don't break the laws there, I doubt we will break them anywhere.

If you are going to assassinate a witness for a relative or the prosecutor (or really anybody), it is just as easy to wait outside.
It is simply security theater.

Now, if constitutional carry is passed I am all for restricting of weapons by persons not licensed in courtrooms.

:txflag:
No, it's a matter of making the courtroom as safe as it can be so the business of the state can be done without intimidation or attack. It's also about eliminating the risk of someone just losing it and acting out with a firearm when they do so.

Witnesses, defendants, judges, juries, prosecutors and defense teams would all be at much higher risk and that kind of knowledge is very intimidating.

Yes, bad acts can happen once they leave but at least in that environment they have a reasonable level of security if the public cannot legally be armed in the courtroom.


Replace the word judges, with professors, the words jurors, with students, and you have just given the exact same argument UT professors gave for trying to ban campus carry.
When professors start trying cases in the classrooms you might have a logical argument.
NRA Life Member NRA Certified Instructor RSO, CRSO,
USCCA Certified Instructor
TX LTC licensed Instructor Personal/Family Protection and Self Defense Instructor.
Without The First and Second Amendments the rest are meaningless.

WTR
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Re: Liberty County Building - Posted

#43

Post by WTR »

WildRose wrote: Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:00 pm
Jusme wrote: Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:34 am
WildRose wrote: Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:20 am
PriestTheRunner wrote: Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:14 am I'm still waiting for an LTC'er to do something illegal in the capital... If we don't break the laws there, I doubt we will break them anywhere.

If you are going to assassinate a witness for a relative or the prosecutor (or really anybody), it is just as easy to wait outside.
It is simply security theater.

Now, if constitutional carry is passed I am all for restricting of weapons by persons not licensed in courtrooms.

:txflag:
No, it's a matter of making the courtroom as safe as it can be so the business of the state can be done without intimidation or attack. It's also about eliminating the risk of someone just losing it and acting out with a firearm when they do so.

Witnesses, defendants, judges, juries, prosecutors and defense teams would all be at much higher risk and that kind of knowledge is very intimidating.

Yes, bad acts can happen once they leave but at least in that environment they have a reasonable level of security if the public cannot legally be armed in the courtroom.


Replace the word judges, with professors, the words jurors, with students, and you have just given the exact same argument UT professors gave for trying to ban campus carry.
When professors start trying cases in the classrooms you might have a logical argument.

I think it is amusing that you use the term logic as your argument has no basis in logic .

WildRose
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Re: Liberty County Building - Posted

#44

Post by WildRose »

WTR wrote: Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:11 pm
WildRose wrote: Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:00 pm
Jusme wrote: Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:34 am
WildRose wrote: Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:20 am
PriestTheRunner wrote: Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:14 am I'm still waiting for an LTC'er to do something illegal in the capital... If we don't break the laws there, I doubt we will break them anywhere.

If you are going to assassinate a witness for a relative or the prosecutor (or really anybody), it is just as easy to wait outside.
It is simply security theater.

Now, if constitutional carry is passed I am all for restricting of weapons by persons not licensed in courtrooms.

:txflag:
No, it's a matter of making the courtroom as safe as it can be so the business of the state can be done without intimidation or attack. It's also about eliminating the risk of someone just losing it and acting out with a firearm when they do so.

Witnesses, defendants, judges, juries, prosecutors and defense teams would all be at much higher risk and that kind of knowledge is very intimidating.

Yes, bad acts can happen once they leave but at least in that environment they have a reasonable level of security if the public cannot legally be armed in the courtroom.


Replace the word judges, with professors, the words jurors, with students, and you have just given the exact same argument UT professors gave for trying to ban campus carry.
When professors start trying cases in the classrooms you might have a logical argument.

I think it is amusing that you use the term logic as your argument has no basis in logic .
May I recommend Webster's to you?

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/logic

Now make a logical case that allowing carry in court will not have any effect on the judicial process, that judges, witnesses, prosecutors, jurors would not let that knowledge intimidate them in any way or that there's no possibility someone will lose it shooting up the courtroom?

Physical attacks already occur in courtrooms all across the country with some regularity due to people coming emotionally unglued or in an attempt at intimidation or retribution.

Logically there is zero possibility that allowing carry there will not result eventually in the unlawful use of those firearms.

Unless you are there as a result of being called, subpoenaed, charged, etch or work there entry into the courts is strictly a voluntary act and by doing so you submit yourself to the rules of the court. You have no "basic human right" to be armed in a courtroom period nor can you cite anything in US law of our constitution which supports such a claim.
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Without The First and Second Amendments the rest are meaningless.

ninjabread
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Re: Liberty County Building - Posted

#45

Post by ninjabread »

The only people who should be able to legally carry in court are the judge, the jury, and the bailiff.

Not the defense. Not the prosecutor or plaintiff. Not witnesses for either side. Not paid experts for either side. Not friends and family in the gallery. It doesn't matter if they're LEO, LTC, MIL, FED, or any other alphabet soup. It's too risky they will blow a gasket and shoot up the place.

OR

Citizens with a license to carry should be able to carry every place a cop can carry when not discharging their official duty.
This is my opinion. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

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