LTC and "criminal street gang"

[ELB]

Under the Motorist Protection Act, you can carry a handgun in your vehicle as long as you are not committing a crime other than a minor traffic violation, you keep the handgun concealed (unless you have an LTC), and you are not a member of a "criminal street gang."

However, if you are a member of a "criminal street gang" but without any disqualifying conviction, can you legally obtain a LTC?

I looked in GC 411.172 and did not see membership in a "criminal street gang" as a disqualifying factor.



ETA: Texas law defines "criminal street gang" as

d) “Criminal street gang” means three or more persons having a common identifying sign or symbol or an identifiable leadership who continuously or regularly associate in the commission of criminal activities.

From looking at a few stories on prosecutions, it does not appear that being judged a member of a criminal street gang requires a criminal conviction.

[Jusme]

Under the Motorist Protection Act, you can carry a handgun in your vehicle as long as you are not committing a crime other than a minor traffic violation, you keep the handgun concealed (unless you have an LTC), and you are not a member of a "criminal street gang."

However, if you are a member of a "criminal street gang" but without any disqualifying conviction, can you legally obtain a LTC?

I looked in GC 411.172 and did not see membership in a "criminal street gang" as a disqualifying factor.



ETA: Texas law defines "criminal street gang" as

d) “Criminal street gang” means three or more persons having a common identifying sign or symbol or an identifiable leadership who continuously or regularly associate in the commission of criminal activities.

From looking at a few stories on prosecutions, it does not appear that being judged a member of a criminal street gang requires a criminal conviction.

I believe there was a thread on here, regarding, the fact, that non-convicted, gang members, were getting their LTC. And that other gang members, were using non-convicted members as straw purchasers, for the gang. I don''t know if it is a widespread thing, or not, but I would suspect that non-convicted, gang members, don't stay that way long, and if they are caught, will be prosecuted, aggressively.

But to answer your question, if someone has never been convicted, or arrested as a gang member, it would be difficult, to prevent them from obtaining, an LTC. I know the DPS, keeps a list, of street gangs, but, I don't know if they have a way of keeping track of their membership, without the person being arrested. JMHO

[mojo84]

Isn't being a member of a criminal gang a disqualifier for owning a gun? If so, isn't being qualified to own a gun part of the LTC requirements?

I'm just shooting from the hip here so don't roast me too bad if I am missing the boat.

[ScottDLS]

Under the Motorist Protection Act, you can carry a handgun in your vehicle as long as you are not committing a crime other than a minor traffic violation, you keep the handgun concealed (unless you have an LTC), and you are not a member of a "criminal street gang."

However, if you are a member of a "criminal street gang" but without any disqualifying conviction, can you legally obtain a LTC?

I looked in GC 411.172 and did not see membership in a "criminal street gang" as a disqualifying factor.



ETA: Texas law defines "criminal street gang" as

d) “Criminal street gang” means three or more persons having a common identifying sign or symbol or an identifiable leadership who continuously or regularly associate in the commission of criminal activities.

From looking at a few stories on prosecutions, it does not appear that being judged a member of a criminal street gang requires a criminal conviction.

Correct. Being a member of a "criminal street gang" as defined by Texas PC is NOT a disqualifier for obtaining a LTC, as long as you meet the other criteria. It IS a disqualifier for carrying under MPA. Or in other words 46.02 applies to you (criminal street gang member) in your vehicle UNLESS you have a LTC.

I suspect it's not a disqualifier for LTC because such a designation is so arbitrary that it would not pass Constitutional scrutiny. I guess one could make a similar argument for that part of 46.02, but apparently no one has.

[Allons]

If you are not a confirmed gang member you can carry a gun and get an LTC. If arrested and you tell them you are in a gang or have gang tattoos and they confirm you then you go on the bad boy list. At least that is what I was told by a Bexar County Sherriff who works at the county jail.

[ELB]

Isn't being a member of a criminal gang a disqualifier for owning a gun?

No.

As far as I can tell in Texas law, being a member of a criminal street gang serves only to enhance punishment a level if you are convicted of a crime. It is not a crime itself.

[DocV]

If you are not a confirmed gang member you can carry a gun and get an LTC. If arrested and you tell them you are in a gang or have gang tattoos and they confirm you then you go on the bad boy list. At least that is what I was told by a Bexar County Sherriff who works at the county jail.

... Would a Hello Kitty tattoo be considered a gang tattoo? Asking for a friend.

[ScottDLS]

If you are not a confirmed gang member you can carry a gun and get an LTC. If arrested and you tell them you are in a gang or have gang tattoos and they confirm you then you go on the bad boy list. At least that is what I was told by a Bexar County Sherriff who works at the county jail.

... Would a Hello Kitty tattoo be considered a gang tattoo? Asking for a friend.

Only if you’re carrying a Hello Kitty keychain aka Brass knuckles.

[Allons]

If you are not a confirmed gang member you can carry a gun and get an LTC. If arrested and you tell them you are in a gang or have gang tattoos and they confirm you then you go on the bad boy list. At least that is what I was told by a Bexar County Sherriff who works at the county jail.

... Would a Hello Kitty tattoo be considered a gang tattoo? Asking for a friend.

Only if you’re carrying a Hello Kitty keychain aka Brass knuckles.

[nimravus01]

Here is another perspectice on the subject:

http://www.motorcycleprofilingproject.c ... rm-bikers/

[Soccerdad1995]

ETA: Texas law defines "criminal street gang" as

d) “Criminal street gang” means three or more persons having a common identifying sign or symbol or an identifiable leadership who continuously or regularly associate in the commission of criminal activities.

Waller county has an identifiable leadership right? So that should make all members of their county council ineligible to carry under the MPA.

[mojo84]

I think this is a situation where gramar is very important in writing and interpreting the law. Each side can read it with bias and interpret it in their favor.

I do not think it means the person has to be one of the three or more that is involved in commiting crimes.

Sec. 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person:

(1) intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun or club; and

(2) is not:

(A) on the person's own premises or premises under the person's control; or

(B) inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle or watercraft that is owned by the person or under the person's control.

(a-1) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun in a motor vehicle or watercraft that is owned by the person or under the person's control at any time in which:

(1) the handgun is in plain view, unless the person is licensed to carry a handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and the handgun is carried in a shoulder or belt holster; or

(2) the person is:

(A) engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic or boating;

(B) prohibited by law from possessing a firearm; or

(C) a member of a criminal street gang, as defined by Section 71.01.

Sec. 71.01. DEFINITIONS. In this chapter,

d) "Criminal street gang" means three or more persons having a common identifying sign or symbol or an identifiable leadership who continuously or regularly associate in the commission of criminal activities.

[ScottDLS]

Here is another perspectice on the subject:

http://www.motorcycleprofilingproject.c ... rm-bikers/

The article is quite misleading in that they claim 46.02 is being misapplied to prohibit bikers from "possessing" firearms and suggesting that it has been applied to bikers with LTC's, without providing any examples. 46.02 prohibits CARRYING of weapons (specifically handguns), not possession. Second, the example that they give was of a biker carrying in their car, not merely possessing. And apparently the defense did not raise this exception of having a LTC. Presumably either the biker didn't have one or has a very bad lawyer. I read the MPP article previously on another site and the other MPP articles linked there. None provided anything other than allegations that this was occurring.

I'm not sure I agree with the aspect of 46.02 that disallows vehicle carry by "criminal street gang" members when no formal adjudication of such status has ever been made. But that is the law as it currently stands. It is a lot different than saying that all Bandidos Club Members are prohibited from "possessing" firearms.

[Soccerdad1995]

I have no love for gang members. But it just seems fundamentally anti-American for the government to take away peoples' God given rights because they are members of a group. If you have committed a crime, then yes it is appropriate to punish you by taking away your pursuit of Happiness, your Liberty, and maybe even your Life. But mere membership in a group that is considered by the government to be "criminal"? I'd say no.

This is a very dangerous path, IMHO.

[mojo84]

It's not just the government that considers dinner of the gangs and motorcycle clubs criminal. They themselves promote the criminal aspect of their groups.

When people put 1% patches or tear drop tats on their bodies that indicate how many people they've killed, they are promoting just how criminal they are. Just because they have not been adjudicated a criminal doesn't mean they are not one.