Pit Bull Attack...divine intervention

CHL discussions that do not fit into more specific topics

Moderators: carlson1, Charles L. Cotton


texas yankee
Member
Posts in topic: 4
Posts: 114
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 9:55 pm
Location: Frisco, TX

Re: Pit Bull Attack...divine intervention

#61

Post by texas yankee » Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:10 pm

You’d all kill your dog if it attacked someone - yet you’re willing to take a chance that it will attack someone - amazing!
What's in it for me ? :patriot:

User avatar

The Annoyed Man
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 3
Posts: 25652
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:59 pm
Location: North Richland Hills, Texas
Contact:

Re: Pit Bull Attack...divine intervention

#62

Post by The Annoyed Man » Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:09 pm

texas yankee wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:10 pm
You’d all kill your dog if it attacked someone - yet you’re willing to take a chance that it will attack someone - amazing!
Wrong. What’s amazing is your reading something into posts that was never said.

I’m perfectly willing to allow my dogs to have their way with a bad guy. As it happens, my dogs aren’t particularly mean. All I’m saying is, if you have a breed that is known for attacking people, you’d better be prepared to put the dog down if it attacks someone who ISN'T a bad guy, instead of being in denial about the breed you have. Be a responsible dog owner. Mine are a boxador (boxer/lab) and a boxer, and aren’t particularly aggressive...although the boxador barks a lot at strangers. The big boxer is 107 lbs of doggie goo, and he’s everybody's best friend.
• Give me Liberty or I'll get up and get it myself.
• I don't carry because of the odds, I carry because of the stakes.
• My dream is to have lived my life so well that future generations of leftists will demand my name be removed from buildings.
• Independent Minarchist.


texas yankee
Member
Posts in topic: 4
Posts: 114
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 9:55 pm
Location: Frisco, TX

Re: Pit Bull Attack...divine intervention

#63

Post by texas yankee » Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:35 pm

Thanks for calling out my post - you are right, and I should have been more specific with what I posted - I'm not a dog lover, and I don't know much about training dogs, or dog behavior, but just as a drug dog is trained to alert on grass or coke and such, versus avocados or hot dogs, I have always assumed that a family-type dog would be even-tempered, probably barking when the door is knocked on or someone approaches the yard, but not randomly attacking anyone - I also don't know how a dog like that differentiates between a family member and a burglar or some other bad guy - some kind or training, maybe, with regular reinforcement - maybe familiarity - I guess that any dog can "go off on" anyone, at any time, but with a breed that has a historical track record of attacking family members, kids, and other people familiar to the dog, beyond "one offs", it's amazing to me that the owner of such a dog would trust that dog for even a second with a loved one around, or let down your guard even by yourself. The tolerance that municipalities show towards those kinds of dogs amazes me, too.
What's in it for me ? :patriot:

User avatar

Flightmare
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 2593
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:00 pm
Location: Plano, TX

Re: Pit Bull Attack...divine intervention

#64

Post by Flightmare » Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:48 pm

One of my roommates owns a pit. She's scared to death of wind and thunder. I've heard her whimper, but I don't think I can even recall ever hearing her bark. The toddler in the house mauls the dog, and the dog does not care. Even when the little one is messing with the dog's food while she's eating, the dog doesn't care. The dog just moves away and waits until her food is being left alone. For the record, the 2 are never left alone together.

People who trained dogs in the past (like C-dub) know, that proper training and socialization are important. I've encountered chihuahuas that think they are big dogs and tend to be very territorial. Their owners were very lax in their training. Sheepdogs, police/military K9s, and service animals all go thru rigorous training to be able to perform the tasks requested of them. Animals have their own minds. Because of this, they cannot be 100% predictable. Sometimes something happens that causes an animal to react in a way that is not desirable. A smaller dog is not as likely to cause severe damage as a larger dog will. It is the responsibility of the dog's master to keep an eye on them and ensure that they behave properly.

I agree with the comments made above that should the unthinkable happen; while unfortunate, there may be an unpleasant task that needs to be done. I hope and pray that none of us will be put in the position to do that.
Deplorable lunatic since 2016


Topic author
chasfm11
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 17
Posts: 3698
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:01 pm
Location: Northern DFW

Re: Pit Bull Attack...divine intervention

#65

Post by chasfm11 » Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:33 am

Update:

1. Our dog is nearly healed. Her damaged right shoulder is not showing any signs of soreness though it has only been the last couple of days when I've taken her on very short walks. Before the attack, we walked about a mile each day which is about all that her short legs can handle. She is a Shih Tuz mix, weighing in at 18 pounds.

2. I presented the $250 emergency vet bill to the owners of the attacking dog. They paid it and also gave us a very sweet card which said how sorry they were about the incident. I truly believe that they had no idea about their dog's inherent prey drive. They were staying with my neighbor and have now moved several miles away to their own house. The wife also bought a cake for us at the local farmer's market. I bear them no ill will and recognize the attack was an accident. There is no way to tell if they learned anything from it.

3. I have not heard back from Animal Services. I've been toying with the idea of paying their manager a visit. The officer who responded to my call on the day of the attack was supposed to have verified rabies immunization on the attacking dog. I have to assume that it was OK or that they would have contacted me. I shouldn't have to make that assumption. I expected to get a copy of the responding officer's report. If do physically meet with Animal Services, that will probably be my lead in question: "what expectations should I have about your department as a result of your responding to my call about a dog attack?" This incident followed the same pattern as my call to them the day that I was bitten by the Doberman. My leg was still bleeding when the Animal Services officer arrived. I never heard anything from them after that incident. What was interesting was my riding my bike in the same neighborhood a couple of years later. That same dog was in the back of a car that passed me and tried its best to come through the side window at me.

I appreciate the dialogue that has been generated on this thread. I have to admit that the incident has done nothing for what was a healthy skepticism about pit bulls before it happened. But I profile all dogs, not by breed but by perceived age. I pretty much ignore any dog that appears to be a senior and I make that determination based on its movements. Younger dogs, particularly larger breeds, draw my laser focus.

My overall expectations have been solidified. I walk my dog in a public park. The Town has gone out of its way to place dispensers for doggie waste bags conveniently along the concrete paths and to provide waste containers too. In a half of a mile, my dog can find 25-30 piles from where owners refused to pick up after their animals. Given the number of people who walk their dogs in the park, I'd judge that the waste was created by about 20% of the people. Whether they believe that they have no responsibility or whether they just don't believe that they have to follow the Town ordnance is not clear. I find about 20% of the owners also do not obey the leash law. In some cases, it is clear that the animal is well behaved (better than mine but she is NEVER off leash) and they present no problem for anyone else. A fraction of the off-leash dogs show no signs of responding to their owner's commands and exhibit obnoxious and sometimes threatening behavior to other animals and to people like me on bicycles. While I shudder to think about these animals interacting with the many small kids who ride bikes in the park, I've abandoned all hope that the Town's Ordnance or the Animal Services staff are going to make any difference. I would equate it to the results from the Do Not Call registry. I'm left to deal with the situations on my own. I go out of my way to avoid them if there is anyway possible. But this incident made clear to me that I probably don't have the physical means to deal with an attacking dog and that confidence in the pepper spray that I've been carrying is unwarranted. I'm going to act accordingly.
6/23-8/13/10 -51 days to plastic
Dum Spiro, Spero

User avatar

anygunanywhere
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 3
Posts: 7496
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:16 am
Location: La Grange, Texas

Re: Pit Bull Attack...divine intervention

#66

Post by anygunanywhere » Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:41 am

We inherited a male bichon frise who was raised as an alpha over the children in the family. The dog favored women. We were always wary of the dog when the grandkids were around. Out of nowhere the dog bit my granddaughter in the face when she approached my wife.

I ended the dog immediately.
"The Second Amendment is absolute...If we refuse infringement to our Right to Keep and Bear Arms, as protected by the Second Amendment, we will never be burdened by tyranny, dictatorship, or subjugation - other than to bury those who attempt it. B.E.Wood


flechero
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 7
Posts: 2936
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 5:04 pm
Location: Central Texas

Re: Pit Bull Attack...divine intervention

#67

Post by flechero » Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:52 pm

chasfm11 wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:33 am
Our dog is nearly healed.


I profile all dogs
As you should! And even then, don't trust any of them blindly. Glad to hear that your dog is healing up! :tiphat:


flechero
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 7
Posts: 2936
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 5:04 pm
Location: Central Texas

Re: Pit Bull Attack...divine intervention

#68

Post by flechero » Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:14 pm

texas yankee wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:35 pm
Thanks for calling out my post - you are right, and I should have been more specific with what I posted - I'm not a dog lover, and I don't know much about training dogs, or dog behavior, but just as a drug dog is trained to alert on grass or coke and such, versus avocados or hot dogs, I have always assumed that a family-type dog would be even-tempered, probably barking when the door is knocked on or someone approaches the yard, but not randomly attacking anyone - I also don't know how a dog like that differentiates between a family member and a burglar or some other bad guy - some kind or training, maybe, with regular reinforcement - maybe familiarity - I guess that any dog can "go off on" anyone, at any time, but with a breed that has a historical track record of attacking family members, kids, and other people familiar to the dog, beyond "one offs", it's amazing to me that the owner of such a dog would trust that dog for even a second with a loved one around, or let down your guard even by yourself. The tolerance that municipalities show towards those kinds of dogs amazes me, too.
Some dogs are as chill as their type b owners, but many aren't. Many of the breeds known for aggression are good working breeds that lack training/or were never worked with after puppy training.

I'm far from a dog expert but IMO, it starts with training and socialization and the issue is many people stop there. As for how a dog knows who is who- I introduce people to the dog, as I do the rest of my family and give her a command to let her know the person is ok to be in the house. I do not introduce her to contractors and other professional visitors and keep her behind a gate- she lets them know she doesn't approve of their presence inside. Like any "skill" a dog must also be worked regularly to be on his/her game. Half of the work is done to reinforce the hierarchy and the bond/trust between the dog and handler/owner/family/etc..


VectorWega
Junior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue May 01, 2018 10:10 pm

Re: Pit Bull Attack...divine intervention

#69

Post by VectorWega » Fri Dec 27, 2019 9:20 pm

chasfm11 wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:52 pm
I doubt if killing the dog would have made any difference in the outcome. The damage that has been done was done by the time I could safely shoot arrived. I say "safely" because I would not put my own dog in jeopardy with my gun. Shooting the dog might have landed me in jail. That would definitely not have helped the situation. The animal control person pretty much told me that I have no rights in the matter.
That animal control person is pretty clueless. Texas laws are very friendly to citizens that feel compelled to use force to protect property. Regardless, your dogs life and well being as well as your own life and well being are worth way more than the punishment you would receive if you were in the wrong for shooting a charging pit bull.
chasfm11 wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:04 pm
Why can't irresponsible people get chihuahuas? The animal control person said that chihauuas are a lot more aggressive than pits - and I believe that - but they are not capable of inflicting the kind of damage that pits can. She also tried to sell me than many other breeds can do a lot more damage in a full on attack - like a German Shepard. That might be true but Shepards have a lot more predictable behavior than pits do, IMHO.
Actually, I'd argue that Chihuahua owners tend to be some of the most irresponsible of all dog owners. The thing is, the consequences for being irresponsible with a Chihuahua are not nearly as great. You think irresponsible people don't own Labrador Retrievers? Labs are one of the most widely owned breeds in the US. They are often neglected, beaten, traumatized, etc and yet despite their large size the consequences of being an irresponsible Lab owner are not nearly as great as being an irresponsible pit bull owner.

The Chihuahua argument is one often made by pit bull proponents, but it's completely irrelevant. A Chihuahua is not going to rip your face off. A Chihuahua is not going to mangle your arm. I had a Chihuahua who couldn't even break a human's skin.

Her point about German Shepherds is completely off too. A pit bull attack is far more dangerous than a German Shepherd attack. Saying "full on attack" is a bit deceptive because most dogs don't attack like a pit bull attacks. Most dogs bite and release. Pit bulls attack and do not release and will not give up on the attack, sometimes continuing to attack even after being beaten and stabbed. Sure, if a St Bernard named Cujo gets rabies after being bitten by a bat then I suppose Cujo would be even more dangerous than a pit bull. That's fiction though. In real life St Bernards, despite being much more powerful than pit bulls are nowhere near as dangerous. Sure a St Bernard's bite is likely to cause more damage than a single pit bull bite but it's very highly unlikely to be a "full on attack" like a pit bull attack because a St. Bernard doesn't attack like that.

Many years ago a Dogo Argentino (which looks similar to a pit bull, but is not one) attacked a news anchor on live TV. That woman had to have multiple facial reconstruction surgeries due to a single bite that happened in less than half a second. Of course a Dogo Argentino is much more powerful than an American Pit Bull Terrier but again, it was just a single bite and the attack was over. I've watched dozens and dozens of pit bull attacks and this single bite dynamic rarely happens with them. Virtually every pit bull attack is a "full on attack."

chasfm11 wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:18 pm
Had I seen it coming, my instinct is to pick up my dog (she only weighs 18lbs) rather than draw my gun.
I'd just caution that this doesn't necessarily mean the dog would be safe. Pit bulls can knock people down. They can jump. I've seen dogs be placed on top of cars/trucks after being freed from a pit bull attack only to have the pit bull jump up and yank the dog down for attack #2.

I'm just speaking generally. For all I know you're a 6'7" 450lb strongman.

Hoodasnacks wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:00 pm
You are actually both wrong--German Shepherd bite strength 238 PSI; American Pit Bull 235 PSI (so basically the same). American temperament society test pass rate: German Shepard 85.3%; American Pit Bull 87.4%. Pits actually score higher than golden retrievers (85.6%) and collies (80.8%).

Sorry--I'm a nerd on these types of things. Pitt Bulls are the AR-15 of Dogs. They are not significantly more dangerous than others just like guns--but are still dangerous. People also often see a scary dog and often incorrectly identify it as a pit (https://www.earth.com/news/pit-bull-bite-statistics/ "A study of shelter staff and veterinarians found that the participants over-identified dogs as pit bulls. Only 25 pit bull-type breeds were used in the study, yet participants labeled 62 dogs as pit bulls. Additionally, victims may be more likely to report dog bites from breeds they deem dangerous over less intimidating breeds.") Not saying that you are doing this at all--just pointing out that the stats on this subject are often wrong/over-inflated. There are lots of stats/studies on the issue. E.g. boxers are often mistaken for pits.
You're not nearly as nerdy as you think you are or as you need to be to put out a truly informed opinion on the matter. First of all, there has never been a truly comprehensive scientific study on dog breed bite force. Saying pits have 235 PSI is the equivalent of saying boxers punch at 1600 PSIs, football players run 40 yards in 4.4 seconds, or sprinters run 100 meters in 10.1 seconds. Really they do? First of all, not all pit bulls are pure bred APBTs but even within APBTs you think they are all the same? You think a 30lb APBT bites the same as a 65lb APBT? Pit bulls are different sizes, different ages, and different genders. Even if the statistics were accurate they are fairly useless as they have little bearing as to which dog is the more lethal fighter/attacker. Pit bulls and german shepherds are both powerful enough to do significant damage. What's important is not how much damage a single bite can do but rather how much damage the dog is likely to do.

You can try to make the case that pit bulls are no more dangerous than other dogs but the statistics are very clear, at least in regards to the one statistic that is tracked for every single incident, which is human fatalities from dog bites. Each and every year pit bulls kill more people in the US than every other breed combined. Anytime a person is killed by a dog in the US the media covers it. There are pictures and/or videos of all of these dogs and we are long past the days when breeds in these incidents were misidentified.
Hoodasnacks wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:53 pm

I don't blame you at all for feeling that way and I would probably feel that way too...it just makes me sad to see the statement of a "breed" affecting you, its a bad dog owned by a bad owner (just like an AR15). Their reputation is what attracts bad owners, and the reputation would likely be false but for the bad owners. It is a sad circle.
I'm not too keen on the use of the word "bad" to describe either the dog or the owner. If a lion were to kill a person would we call the lion bad or evil? Yet people like to use these words to describe a pit bull, but if they truly understood the breed I think they would understand that it is simply acting within its nature.

Saying the owners are "bad" is a bit disingenuous too as if the dogs that attack were trained to be that way by drug dealer owners or something. The fact is that many pit bull attacks occur by family pit bulls raised in loving homes. These owners tend to be more irresponsible than anything. Pit bulls are not normal dogs and as such require a higher level of responsibility to handle. I've owned many dogs far more powerful than pit bulls: Tosa Inu, Alabai, Boerboel, and Rotweiller. You know how many times one of these dogs has ever escaped my backyard? ZERO. You know how many times one of these dogs has ever escaped my front door? ZERO. You know how many times I have had these dogs unleashed at the park or in public or even in my front yard? ZERO. It would be extremely reckless for that # to be higher than zero. Same goes for pit bulls.


wheelgun1958
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 881
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:40 pm
Location: Rural Ellis Co. TX

Re: Pit Bull Attack...divine intervention

#70

Post by wheelgun1958 » Fri Dec 27, 2019 11:37 pm

I adopted a dachshund from a guy at work. She bit his granddaughter and his wife said dog has to go. She's the sweetest dog but does not like children. No kids at my house so she does fine.

User avatar

C-dub
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 6
Posts: 12912
Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 7:18 pm
Location: DFW

Re: Pit Bull Attack...divine intervention

#71

Post by C-dub » Sat Dec 28, 2019 9:01 pm

A bad dog is a bad dog. Some pits are bad. Many are good. Many dogs of any breed are bad. With the amount of poor breeding that goes into many pits or any breed I am amazed there are not more problems.
I am not and have never been a LEO. My avatar is in honor of my friend, Dallas Police Sargent Michael Smith, who was murdered along with four other officers in Dallas on 7.7.2016.
NRA Patriot-Endowment Lifetime Member---------------------------------------------Si vis pacem, para bellum.................................................Patriot Guard Rider


VectorWega
Junior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue May 01, 2018 10:10 pm

Re: Pit Bull Attack...divine intervention

#72

Post by VectorWega » Sat Dec 28, 2019 10:31 pm

C-dub wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 9:01 pm
A bad dog is a bad dog. Some pits are bad. Many are good. Many dogs of any breed are bad. With the amount of poor breeding that goes into many pits or any breed I am amazed there are not more problems.
Poor breeding? American Pit Bull Terriers were originally bred to compete in blood sports: bull baiting, bear baiting, and dog fighting. People wanted a dog that was as powerful as a bulldog but with the tenacity and killer instinct of a terrier.

User avatar

RPBrown
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 4
Posts: 4593
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 11:56 am
Location: Irving, Texas

Re: Pit Bull Attack...divine intervention

#73

Post by RPBrown » Sat Dec 28, 2019 11:09 pm

VectorWega wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 10:31 pm
C-dub wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 9:01 pm
A bad dog is a bad dog. Some pits are bad. Many are good. Many dogs of any breed are bad. With the amount of poor breeding that goes into many pits or any breed I am amazed there are not more problems.
Poor breeding? American Pit Bull Terriers were originally bred to compete in blood sports: bull baiting, bear baiting, and dog fighting. People wanted a dog that was as powerful as a bulldog but with the tenacity and killer instinct of a terrier.
No, the American Bull Terrier was originally bred to watch over children, typically used as parents worked in the fields. They would be left to keep kids free from snakes, animal and human predators.
They started being used as fighting animals because of their short muscular bodies and yes, their bite force. That’s when they got the Pit added to their names.
NRA-Benefactor Life member
TSRA-Life member
Image

User avatar

03Lightningrocks
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 4
Posts: 9218
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:15 pm
Location: DFW area

Re: Pit Bull Attack...divine intervention

#74

Post by 03Lightningrocks » Sat Dec 28, 2019 11:52 pm

RPBrown wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 11:09 pm
VectorWega wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 10:31 pm
C-dub wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 9:01 pm
A bad dog is a bad dog. Some pits are bad. Many are good. Many dogs of any breed are bad. With the amount of poor breeding that goes into many pits or any breed I am amazed there are not more problems.
Poor breeding? American Pit Bull Terriers were originally bred to compete in blood sports: bull baiting, bear baiting, and dog fighting. People wanted a dog that was as powerful as a bulldog but with the tenacity and killer instinct of a terrier.
No, the American Bull Terrier was originally bred to watch over children, typically used as parents worked in the fields. They would be left to keep kids free from snakes, animal and human predators.
They started being used as fighting animals because of their short muscular bodies and yes, their bite force. That’s when they got the Pit added to their names.
They were originally bred to compete in blood sports, just as the post said. Maybe someone used them in the instance you mentioned but that is NOT what they were bred for.
Pit bulls were created by crossbreeding bulldogs and terriers to produce a dog that combined the strength of the bulldog with the gameness and agility of the terrier.[6] In the United Kingdom, these dogs were used in blood sports such as bull-baiting and bear-baiting.
Last edited by 03Lightningrocks on Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar

G.A. Heath
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 2843
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 9:39 pm
Location: Western Texas

Re: Pit Bull Attack...divine intervention

#75

Post by G.A. Heath » Sun Dec 29, 2019 12:15 am

Dogs are a product of the people who raise them, like people. In my experience people who want aggressive dogs get "pits" and condition them accordingly. When those dogs do damage it tends to be more sensationally reported. If a "pit" is running loose it should be regarded with more caution because it has a better chance of being owned by people who do not care about it's welfare and may have been conditioned to be aggressive. In fact ANY dog running loose should be viewed this way. If you are wrong then no harm, no foul. If you are right then MAYBE you and your furbaby can avoid using force to defend yourselves.
How do you explain a dog named Sauer without first telling the story of a Puppy named Sig?
R.I.P. Sig, 08/21/2019 - 11/18/2019

Post Reply

Return to “General Texas CHL Discussion”