"Felony" sign

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chasfm11
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Re: "Felony" sign

#16

Post by chasfm11 »

oohrah wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 2:01 pm

Your decision to test that is up to you.
I prefer to think of it as weighing the risks. The type of gathering that I was attending has been the target of violent confrontations. Given the recent school shooting in TN, which I believe was ideologically motivated, there is no reason to assume that I can safely attend any sort of meeting that goes against that ideology. So I weigh whether the potential need to defend my wife and I on the way to and from the room where the event is held against the risk of detection. Without machines, it is very difficult for someone to determine that I'm carrying given my attire for that evening. If I had seen machines, I would have suddenly remembered that I left something in my car.

Here is a similar story. I was in Grapevine Mills Mall not long after receiving my then CHL. That mall was posted with 30:06 looking signs that had incorrect language due to a change in the Texas Penal Code. I carried past the sign. My wife had had recent surgery and was not capable of walking the distances in the mall so we picked up a wheel chair from the mall's support group. They required that I leave my driver's license with them a security to return the wheel chair. During our visit, my wife decided to make a purchase. That store required a photo ID to use a credit card and now the only photo ID that I had was my CHL. I went ahead and showed it to the clerk. We continued our visit, returned the wheel chair and left without incident. I was paying attention to my surroundings a little more than usual, however.
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Tex1961
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Re: "Felony" sign

#17

Post by Tex1961 »

Worst thing I’d you get caught past a 30.06 is asked to leave. Even then it’s only a class 3 misdemeanor. Small fine and doesn’t go against your license.
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RoyGBiv
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Re: "Felony" sign

#18

Post by RoyGBiv »

The Annoyed Man wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 9:43 pm That has to be a language change. I have a distinct memory of the law using the word "premises", not to mention MANY conversations about it here on this website over the years. Are my memories incorrect?
I am not a lawyer... This is just my opinion.

There's a pretty good analysis here that concludes that a 30.0x sign at a parking lot entrance ONLY prohibits license holders, but not people who have a gun in the car without an LTC. (hows that for nuts?)

Put simply, if you don't have an LTC, then, there's nothing in a 30.0X sign that applies to you... :roll:
https://opencarrytexas.wordpress.com/20 ... cle-carry/

Here's the text of the "Employee Parking Lot" law...
https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/82R/b ... 00321F.htm

The way I read this, it 's only a carve out for employees... It doesn't prevent private property owners from prohibiting parking lot storage for non-employees that have a LTC... As argued in the link above, H-411 only applies to license holders.
SUBCHAPTER G. RESTRICTIONS ON PROHIBITING EMPLOYEE
TRANSPORTATION OR STORAGE OF CERTAIN FIREARMS OR AMMUNITION
Sec. 52.061. RESTRICTION ON PROHIBITING EMPLOYEE ACCESS TO
OR STORAGE OF FIREARM OR AMMUNITION. A public or private employer
may not prohibit an employee who holds a license to carry a
concealed handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code,
who otherwise lawfully possesses a firearm, or who lawfully
possesses ammunition from transporting or storing a firearm or
ammunition the employee is authorized by law to possess in a locked,
privately owned motor vehicle in a parking lot, parking garage, or
other parking area the employer provides for employees.
And it clearly distinguishes parking lot from "premises"
(b) Section 52.061 does not prohibit an employer from
prohibiting an employee who holds a license to carry a concealed
handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, or who
otherwise lawfully possesses a firearm, from possessing a firearm
the employee is otherwise authorized by law to possess on the
premises of the employer's business. In this subsection,
"premises" has the meaning assigned by Section 46.035(f)(3), Penal
Code.

<and>

Sec. 411.203. RIGHTS OF EMPLOYERS. This subchapter does
not prevent or otherwise limit the right of a public or private
employer to prohibit persons who are licensed under this subchapter
from carrying a concealed handgun on the premises of the business.
In this section, "premises" has the meaning assigned by Section
46.035(f)(3), Penal Code.
46.035f3
(3) “Premises” means a building or a portion of a building.  The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.
I am not a lawyer. This is NOT legal advice.!
Nothing tempers idealism quite like the cold bath of reality.... SQLGeek
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jmorris
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Re: "Felony" sign

#19

Post by jmorris »

RoyGBiv wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 9:16 pm
C-dub wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 8:10 pm I think the TMS is just trying to scare people. Some will know better, but many will not and there's always the chance that the TMS folks don't know any better or have also been duped.
30.06 restricts carry on private PROPERTY (not PREMISES = Building).... Property would include buildings and land.
If you are not an employee... the parking lot law doesn't cover you.

I am not a lawyer... This is just my opinion.
Sec. [Previous Hit] 30.06 [Next Hit] . TRESPASS BY LICENSE HOLDER WITH A CONCEALED HANDGUN. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:

(1) carries a concealed handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, on property of another without effective consent; and

(2) received notice that entry on the property by a license holder with a concealed handgun was forbidden.

(b) For purposes of this section, a person receives notice if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written communication.

(c) In this section:

(1) "Entry" has the meaning assigned by Section 30.05(b).

(2) "License holder" has the meaning assigned by Section 46.03.

(3) "Written communication" means:

(A) a card or other document on which is written language identical to the following: "Pursuant to Section [Previous Hit] 30.06 [Next Hit] , Penal Code (trespass by license holder with a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (handgun licensing law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun"; or

(B) a sign posted on the property that:

(i) includes the language described by Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;

(ii) appears in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height; and

(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.

(d) An offense under this section is a Class C misdemeanor punishable by a fine not to exceed $200, except that the offense is a Class A misdemeanor if it is shown on the trial of the offense that, after entering the property, the license holder was personally given the notice by oral communication described by Subsection (b) and subsequently failed to depart.

(e) It is an exception to the application of this section that the property on which the license holder carries a handgun is owned or leased by a governmental entity and is not a premises or other place on which the license holder is prohibited from carrying the handgun under Section 46.03.

My opinion is that my handgun is not on their property, it is on (in) my property. That's what I was taught, what I teach, and I've seen nothing that changes that.
Jay E Morris,
Guardian Firearm Training, NRA Pistol, LTC < retired from all
NRA Lifetime, TSRA Lifetime
NRA Recruiter (link)
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ScottDLS
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Re: "Felony" sign

#20

Post by ScottDLS »

The 30.06/07 signs only apply to LTC "CARRYING UNDER THE AUTHORITY" of their LTC. If you are in your car, even before permitless carry the signs did not apply to you. And to make it even better 30.05 doesn't apply to LTC if they HAVE a LTC, not if they are carrying under the AUTHORITY of it.
4/13/1996 Completed CHL Class, 4/16/1996 Fingerprints, Affidavits, and Application Mailed, 10/4/1996 Received CHL, renewed 1998, 2002, 2006, 2011, 2016...). "ATF... Uhhh...heh...heh....Alcohol, tobacco, and GUNS!! Cool!!!!"
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RoyGBiv
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Re: "Felony" sign

#21

Post by RoyGBiv »

jmorris wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 8:02 pm My opinion is that my handgun is not on their property, it is on (in) my property. That's what I was taught, what I teach, and I've seen nothing that changes that.
ScottDLS wrote: Wed Apr 05, 2023 8:44 am The 30.06/07 signs only apply to LTC "CARRYING UNDER THE AUTHORITY" of their LTC. If you are in your car, even before permitless carry the signs did not apply to you. And to make it even better 30.05 doesn't apply to LTC if they HAVE a LTC, not if they are carrying under the AUTHORITY of it.
Y'all be sure to call me when you sign up to be the test cases and I'll start a GoFundMe (or something better for gun people) to help with legal expenses.
I am not a lawyer. This is NOT legal advice.!
Nothing tempers idealism quite like the cold bath of reality.... SQLGeek

Soccerdad1995
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Re: "Felony" sign

#22

Post by Soccerdad1995 »

RoyGBiv wrote: Wed Apr 05, 2023 10:24 am
jmorris wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 8:02 pm My opinion is that my handgun is not on their property, it is on (in) my property. That's what I was taught, what I teach, and I've seen nothing that changes that.
ScottDLS wrote: Wed Apr 05, 2023 8:44 am The 30.06/07 signs only apply to LTC "CARRYING UNDER THE AUTHORITY" of their LTC. If you are in your car, even before permitless carry the signs did not apply to you. And to make it even better 30.05 doesn't apply to LTC if they HAVE a LTC, not if they are carrying under the AUTHORITY of it.
Y'all be sure to call me when you sign up to be the test cases and I'll start a GoFundMe (or something better for gun people) to help with legal expenses.
I appreciate the offer, but I'm not sure I'll need a GoFundMe account for a max $200 fine. If the officer issuing the citation has an LTC, he (or she) would also need to issue a citation to themselves if we're going with the theory that having an LTC means you are always carrying under the authority of that LTC and not another authority you happen to have (constitutional carry, LEOSA, etc).
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ScottDLS
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Re: "Felony" sign

#23

Post by ScottDLS »

RoyGBiv wrote: Wed Apr 05, 2023 10:24 am
jmorris wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 8:02 pm My opinion is that my handgun is not on their property, it is on (in) my property. That's what I was taught, what I teach, and I've seen nothing that changes that.
ScottDLS wrote: Wed Apr 05, 2023 8:44 am The 30.06/07 signs only apply to LTC "CARRYING UNDER THE AUTHORITY" of their LTC. If you are in your car, even before permitless carry the signs did not apply to you. And to make it even better 30.05 doesn't apply to LTC if they HAVE a LTC, not if they are carrying under the AUTHORITY of it.
Y'all be sure to call me when you sign up to be the test cases and I'll start a GoFundMe (or something better for gun people) to help with legal expenses.
Ah the apocryphal "test case" that never seems to happen. I suppose we'll also be hearing about the proverbial "ride" for a class C no jail misdemeanor citation... And don't forget it's "illegal", you just have a defense to prosecution.

Did I hit all the cliches?
4/13/1996 Completed CHL Class, 4/16/1996 Fingerprints, Affidavits, and Application Mailed, 10/4/1996 Received CHL, renewed 1998, 2002, 2006, 2011, 2016...). "ATF... Uhhh...heh...heh....Alcohol, tobacco, and GUNS!! Cool!!!!"
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