Th story behind Apple refusing to work with FBI

[Bitter Clinger]

Item #7 assumes that Apple's systems are 100% secure from intrusion. Once word has gotten out that Apple were cooperating in the manner described in item 7, how long would it take before hackers worldwide overwhelmed Apple's digital infrastructure in attempts to access and steal the "tool"?

Just to further pick nits, there is NO such thing as 100% secure.

[WildBill]

Thanks TAM, your position is more clear to me.
BTW, I don't think that it is possible to build a hack proof phone or any other computer.
Very, very, very, difficult to hack, but it can be done.
I do applaud Apple for continually upgrading the security features of their products.

[Bitter Clinger]

wholeheartedly with TAM

Well, I think that TAM and I are in violent agreement about everything EXCEPT that nagging little key issue of whether or not Apple should obey the court to turn over the goods - data belonging to the terrorist scum encrypted on the phone owned by the city.

And as I posted in the other thread on this topic, I would not be surprised to find Obama pressuring Apple to stiff arm the FBI, because the data could validate that these folks were bankrolled by ISIS (the "S" stands for Syria!), a narrative that he is desparate to keep hidden from the American people. The examples of this White House interfering in FBI investigations is hardly news, think "Fast and Furious" or Hillary's server.

Personally, I am hoping that they jail the Apple execs.

[Solaris]

Interesting to see how Apple ( and the industry) design the next generation of products.

Apple originally thought they had a hack proof product. But the lack of Cook denying what FBI wants will work, suggests it would work and whether Apple does this or not, the phone could be compromised.

So the question is, for the next generation of phones, will Apple fix this issue so even a hack iOS will not get anyone closer to a solution?

[Redneck_Buddha]

If you read their statement the FBI wants them to develop a program to hack any phone, they are not interested in just getting what is on the terrorists phone. You can consider this "the right thing" if you consider invading everyone's privacy the right thing. If the FBI just asked for Apple to give them access to the phone it would not be an issue but that is not what they are asking.

Apple CEO Tim Cook sucking up to current Apple customers, shareholders, and his Silicon Valley constituency.

On appeal Apple will likely lose this case - but by that time whatever actionable information is on the phone will be so aged as to have zero value.

Nice. I'm just sad that I can only NOT buy so many Apple products. I just canceled an order for 4 i-pads for work today.

Because you prefer to use something that's easier to hack?

Wow. Touche!

[Jusme]

[*]There is only one SAFE way to write such a hack, and that is for the FBI to (of course, observing all the proper chain of custody standards) give the phone to Apple, have Apple write a ONE TIME USE hack, have Apple crack that ONE phone's security, and then when that ONE phone's data has been recovered, destroy the existing copy of the hack so that it cannot be used in the future. (* There is a problem with this which I will detail below.)

* Item #7 assumes that Apple's systems are 100% secure from intrusion. Once word has gotten out that Apple were cooperating in the manner described in item 7, how long would it take before hackers worldwide overwhelmed Apple's digital infrastructure in attempts to access and steal the "tool"?

What am I missing?
If Apple systems are 100% secure from intrusion, then there is no SAFE or any other way to write a hack.
Do you mean 100% secure from non-Apple people?

Yes. What I am saying is that possibly Apple (rightly so IMHO) fears that it would be nigh onto impossible to develop such a hack without making themselves a massive and tempting target for black-hat hackers intent on obtain it for their own nefarious uses. Consequently, developing the hack is not only unsafe for reasons having to do with what happens to it after they give it to the FBI, but it is unsafe to Apple's own infrasctructure because it invites attacks on it.....which would threaten the safety of having Apple do the development on their own systems.

It's a lose/lose situation. Effectively, it seems to me that there are only three possible outcomes:

One is to stick to their guns, and refuse to be involved.

The second is to try and write a one-time use hack, break into the phone, recover its data, and destroy the hack again (as if the FBI would allow that tool to escape them once it had been created).

The third is to write a back-door into the next update patch — which would be v. 9.2.2, as I believe 9.2.1 is the current iOS release....at least for the US market.....and allow it to be universally installed as all Apple users update their devices. Once it is out there, then all a hacker has to do is buy an iPhone with the latest OS and find the back door.

Apple will never willingly cooperate with #3, nor should they. My take on their response is that they would cooperate with #2 if they thought it was possible to do so without subjecting either their own systems, or all of their user base to a significant security risk; but they don't think that is possible, ergo they are sticking to their guns and refusing to cooperate under those terms.

There is a consequence for Apple to doing #3, and that is the breaking of faith with their customer base over the security of their devices - which would have a significant impact on their market share as former users abandon the brand in search of a more secure product. The FBI has no moral authority to ask for that.

I hope everyone understands that I am NOT advocating that Apple should not help IF IT CAN DO SO WITHOUT RISKING ALL OF ITS USERS' PRIVACY. I've said from my first post on this subject both here and in the other thread that I think they should help if it is possible under those conditions.

I am merely taking the position that, if forced to balance the privacy of ALL Apple users against the likelihood of obtaining a gold mine of actionable intelligence from that one phone, I'll take privacy. One phone is not going to win or lose the WOT.

What Solaris said.

One other thing TAM, if Apple did write the hack as you describe, it would be done by their personnel, so someone, somewhere would have the information, would they have to kill that employee to preserve the secrecy? I fully agree this is an area more far reaching than just trying to access information on a dead terrorist, and while he/they may have forfeited the right to privacy based on their actions, what the FBI, and I assume the Justice Department are wanting is a tool that they would have full control over, and I'm with you I don't trust them enough to give that to them.

[mrvmax]

Google agrees with Apple, oh the horror.
http://www.theverge.com/2016/2/17/11040 ... encryption

[n5wd]

[*]There is only one SAFE way to write such a hack, and that is for the FBI to (of course, observing all the proper chain of custody standards) give the phone to Apple, have Apple write a ONE TIME USE hack, have Apple crack that ONE phone's security, and then when that ONE phone's data has been recovered, destroy the existing copy of the hack so that it cannot be used in the future. (* There is a problem with this which I will detail below.)

It is not bout safe, it is about precedent. If Apple does this, the world knows the phone can be compromised at any time. What happens with the next terrorist and FBI wants to get into his cellphone? What about France? Germany? UK? all are investigating terrorism. What does Apple do then?

Watching CBSN this morning, one of their reporters mentioned that the federal district attorney in the Western New York District has almost 150 Apple Iphones that they want information from - what will happen NEXT is that once Apple accedes to the demand from the California-based federal prosecutors, the Western New York federal prosecutors jump into court saying "See, Judge - they did it once, we need a court order telling them to do it for all of the IPhones we have... " and the hits just keep on coming.

[Bitter Clinger]

If you read their statement the FBI wants them to develop a program to hack any phone, they are not interested in just getting what is on the terrorists phone. You can consider this "the right thing" if you consider invading everyone's privacy the right thing. If the FBI just asked for Apple to give them access to the phone it would not be an issue but that is not what they are asking.

Apple CEO Tim Cook sucking up to current Apple customers, shareholders, and his Silicon Valley constituency.

On appeal Apple will likely lose this case - but by that time whatever actionable information is on the phone will be so aged as to have zero value.

Nice. I'm just sad that I can only NOT buy so many Apple products. I just canceled an order for 4 i-pads for work today.

Because you prefer to use something that's easier to hack?

Wow. Touche!

I love it when you speak French

[txgho1911]

The target Iphone is a strawman.
The county owns the phone. The county infact uses a mobile device management app from their servers. MDM depending on the tools implemented could be used by the county to isolate this phone and remove all password protections currently in use if they know how to use it.
I can eliminate the password and password requirement from my kids device if and as I choose to when they make the mistake of letting a helpful friend change their password for them.
It is apparent to me the FBI wants a master key and we all know how safe that would be with the FBI.

If the county made mistakes after the attack with this phone they may have made irrecoverable changes on that phone. Apple cannot be held responsible for mishandling the evidence.

[rotor]

If the FBI wants into this phone why not take it apart, clone the memory contents of the phone and hack the clone as much as they want and leave the original intact. Might take them awhile to brute force the thing but eventually they would do it. What could be on there that they don't have anyhow? We know they really are recording every phone call. What they want is a backdoor into everything. Plain and simple.

[JALLEN]

The choice is between Apple being forced, by whatever process, to furnish the software being demanded, so the FBI can access the info as they wish, and creating a back door, leaving all other phones at risk with respect to privacy.

The other choice, it seems to me, is that Apple doesn't have to, or can't, and Apple thereafter becomes the de facto phone/computer system for criminals and terrorists world wide since it is now certain that the FBI, and presumably anyone else, can't access it.

[TexasJohnBoy]

My comparison for this case:

Would you trust your local PD, or the FBI, to install a lock that they had the key to, on your back door? Or, maybe not install a new lock, but make sure that there's a master key for the entire neighborhood? Just in case, you know.

Think of the children. Fight the terrorists. The ends justify the means. Trust us, we know what's best, we're the government. What do you have to hide?

I'm also with Apple on this one. This is a Pandora's box of the highest order.

[VoiceofReason]

I agree with TAM.

Could we trust the government to safeguard the “back door” hack?

Answer: Bradley Manning, Edward Snowden, Hillary Clinton and countless other security breaches.

China would probably have it the day after the FBI did.

[VoiceofReason]

Bitter Clinger

I have to mention that I found the sentence in your post (The government is NOT spying on innocent US citizens.) amusing. Here are a couple of articles. There are many more if you care to research. Of course I can’t vouch for the accuracy of these articles but I do know enough to find that statement funny.

http://www.theverge.com/2014/7/9/583577 ... an-muslims
Glenn Greenwald has revealed what he described last month as "the most important in the archive" of documents leaked by former NSA contractor Edward Snowden. The Intercept reports that the NSA and FBI have been spying on law-abiding Muslim-Americans — including lawyers, academics, civil rights activists, and a political candidate — possibly without warrants, under the pretext of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/1576 ... y-american
In the last 48 hours, it has come to light that the FBI and National Security Agency (NSA) have direct, government-mandated, warrantless access to servers at Google, Apple, Facebook, Microsoft, Skype, and other major internet companies. Furthermore, the NSA also requested — and received — data about every domestic call that’s routed through Verizon’s wired telephone network. While we only have proof of this one request made to Verizon, it is almost guaranteed that the NSA also demanded the same information from every other wired and wireless telecommunications company in the US. In short, the last 48 hours have blown the doors off what is probably by far the biggest case of domestic spying on innocent US citizens.