Education Rankings

Topics that do not fit anywhere else. Absolutely NO discussions of religion, race, or immigration!

Moderators: carlson1, Charles L. Cotton

Post Reply
User avatar

Topic author
RoyGBiv
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 4
Posts: 9508
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:41 am
Location: Fort Worth

Education Rankings

#1

Post by RoyGBiv »

Very off topic, but I thought it was an interesting read and worth sharing.
Good news for TX and reflective of my experience anecdotally.

Everything You Know About State Education Rankings Is Wrong
Our second and more important change was to disaggregate student performance data so that we could compare likes with likes. Traditional rankings effectively reward states for not having many minority students. States do well simply because they are populated by families from more socioeconomically successful ethnic categories—not because they are actually doing a good job educating their various categories of students.
I am not a lawyer. This is NOT legal advice.!
Nothing tempers idealism quite like the cold bath of reality.... SQLGeek

MaduroBU
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 702
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2016 9:11 am

Re: Education Rankings

#2

Post by MaduroBU »

There is no substitute for a supportive nuclear family that provides children with appropriate responsibility and strongly encourages them to pursue education to the extent of their ability.

DocV
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 1127
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 4:29 pm

Re: Education Rankings

#3

Post by DocV »

Interesting.
In a related article, https://www.expressnews.com/news/educat ... 819649.php,
we find:
Texas students fell to their all-time lowest ranking in reading and slipped closer to the national averages in math last year, part of an across-the-board decline on the test commonly known as the “Nation’s Report Card,” according to results released today.

Texas fourth-graders ranked 45th and eighth-graders placed 41st in reading on the National Assessment of Educational Progress, the state’s lowest finish in the exam’s 25-year history. Texas students still performed above national averages on the math test — fourth-graders placed 18th, eighth-graders placed 24th — although both cohorts saw their standings drop in 2017.
User avatar

Topic author
RoyGBiv
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 4
Posts: 9508
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:41 am
Location: Fort Worth

Re: Education Rankings

#4

Post by RoyGBiv »

DocV wrote: Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:26 am Interesting.
In a related article, https://www.expressnews.com/news/educat ... 819649.php,
we find:
The whole point of the article I quoted in the OP, the reason I found it so interesting, was that unless you remove "money spent" and account correctly for heterogeneity, the "national scorecard" interpretations by many (most?) of the major reviewers is just plain wrong.

From the OP link... emphasis mine.
This is starkly illustrated by comparing Texas and Iowa. According to U.S. News and World Report, Texas, which ranks 33rd, is far surpassed in educational quality by Iowa, which ranks eighth. When only the test scores are examined at an aggregate level, the ranks shift somewhat but their relative positions don't: Texas moves to 35th and Iowa to 17th. But when we disaggregate student performance scores by racial categories (white, black, Hispanic, and Asian), the rankings change dramatically.

By looking at test scores for students in fourth and eighth grade in math, reading, and science, and by separating students by racial category, we get 24 different possible bases of comparison. This allows us to measure how well states do for each specific student type—Asian fourth-grade math students, for instance. (We have adjusted our rankings to compensate for the fact that not all states report scores for every student group.) Giving each type equal weight, Texas comes in fifth and Iowa 31st—a remarkable reversal.

Iowa, it turns out, falls so far because it does a below-average job of educating white students (30th in the country), black students (36th), and Asian students (40th), although it is slightly above average with Hispanic students (20th). Because Iowa has a disproportionately large share of white students, who as a group score higher than blacks and Hispanics, rankings that use aggregated test scores place Iowa's education system as above average and superior to that of Texas. Yet Texas students score higher than Iowa students in all but one of the 20 possible bases of comparison between these two states.
I am not a lawyer. This is NOT legal advice.!
Nothing tempers idealism quite like the cold bath of reality.... SQLGeek

BBYC
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 649
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:32 pm

Re: Education Rankings

#5

Post by BBYC »

Unless they can prove group A is inherently dumber than group B, what's the rationale for disaggregated analysis?
God, grant me serenity to accept the things I can't change
Courage to change the things I can
And the firepower to make a difference.
User avatar

Topic author
RoyGBiv
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 4
Posts: 9508
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:41 am
Location: Fort Worth

Re: Education Rankings

#6

Post by RoyGBiv »

BBYC wrote: Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:29 pm Unless they can prove group A is inherently dumber than group B, what's the rationale for disaggregated analysis?
Because there are, in fact, test result differences between the individual groups, and, it's a better measure of results to track how well each group performs separately from the others. Is it a correct comparison to rank Iowa as far better than Texas at educating its kids and ignore the fact that it really isn't?

From the OP link.
Iowa, it turns out, falls so far because it does a below-average job of educating white students (30th in the country), black students (36th), and Asian students (40th), although it is slightly above average with Hispanic students (20th). Because Iowa has a disproportionately large share of white students, who as a group score higher than blacks and Hispanics, rankings that use aggregated test scores place Iowa's education system as above average and superior to that of Texas. Yet Texas students score higher than Iowa students in all but one of the 20 possible bases of comparison between these two states.
I am not a lawyer. This is NOT legal advice.!
Nothing tempers idealism quite like the cold bath of reality.... SQLGeek

Soccerdad1995
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 4337
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:03 pm

Re: Education Rankings

#7

Post by Soccerdad1995 »

It all depends on what we are trying to measure.

If we are trying to determine which schools do the best job of educating, then we need to need to measure the increase in student knowledge during the period they are at a given school. The direct way to do this would be to assess individuals student abilities at the start of each school year, then test those students again at the end of the year and measure the improvement for each specific student. For whatever reason, we don't do this. It would be difficult to keep track of each individual student and then to adjust for kids that change schools during the year, etc. So we use indirect methods, and we try to control for things like economic level (which correlates with race). I think it is fairly self evident that if you take two identical kids and put one in a household where a parent is working with the kid at home, they will do better than the same kid in a household where parents are never there, don't seem to care, etc. If we are trying to rate the job performance of schools, we should control for outside factors that are beyond the school walls. Think of rating the performance of the New York Yankees manager against the Oakland A's manager. In addition to just their win/loss records, you should probably consider the caliber of their players and their team salary budgets if you really want to figure out which one is better, and by how much. Another example would be comparing the job performance of a police chief using only crime statistics and ignoring everything else. The big city chief is going to look worse than the small town chief in most cases.

On the other hand, if we are just trying to figure out which students are the most knowledgeable, then give all the students the same test and you will be close to having an accurate answer.

Among other uses, school rankings are used by prospective homeowners to decide on where they want to buy a house. For that purpose most people want the school that does the best job educating and not necessarily the school that has the smartest kids.
User avatar

ELB
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 8128
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 9:34 pm
Location: Seguin

Re: Education Rankings

#8

Post by ELB »

BBYC wrote: Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:29 pm Unless they can prove group A is inherently dumber than group B, what's the rationale for disaggregated analysis?
Because it doesn't matter whether "A" is dumber or smarter than "B", only that there is a measurable, statistically significant difference.

There is something that makes A different from B. It might be social, it might be parenting, it might be resources, it might be something else, and in all probability it might be a combination. Using an aggregate measure composed of different groups inherently covers up real difference, which is why averages and means have to be calculated and used carefully.
USAF 1982-2005
____________
User avatar

ELB
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 8128
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 9:34 pm
Location: Seguin

Re: Education Rankings

#9

Post by ELB »

RoyGBiv wrote: Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:23 am
Our second and more important change was to disaggregate student performance data so that we could compare likes with likes. Traditional rankings effectively reward states for not having many minority students. ....
I noticed this years ago when a Wisconsin education union leader was claiming that union teachers produce better outcomes because Wisconsin's high school graduation rates were much higher than non-unionized Texas (this is when they were going nuts over Governor Walker). When I looked into that, Wisconsin had, IIRC, something like 90+% of their high school students being white, with very small percentages of black and Hispanic kids. When comparing graduation rates of white kids from Wisconsin with Texas, there was not much difference, and Texas did much better with black kids and Hispanic kids. This also applied to further disaggregation, i.e. comparing English skills of Texas Hispanic kids to Wisconsin Hispanic kids, Texas was clearly doing better. Also in most, if not all, other subject areas where there were national testing results.
USAF 1982-2005
____________
User avatar

Topic author
RoyGBiv
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 4
Posts: 9508
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:41 am
Location: Fort Worth

Re: Education Rankings

#10

Post by RoyGBiv »

ELB wrote: Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:38 pm
RoyGBiv wrote: Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:23 am
Our second and more important change was to disaggregate student performance data so that we could compare likes with likes. Traditional rankings effectively reward states for not having many minority students. ....
I noticed this years ago when a Wisconsin education union leader was claiming that union teachers produce better outcomes because Wisconsin's high school graduation rates were much higher than non-unionized Texas (this is when they were going nuts over Governor Walker). When I looked into that, Wisconsin had, IIRC, something like 90+% of their high school students being white, with very small percentages of black and Hispanic kids. When comparing graduation rates of white kids from Wisconsin with Texas, there was not much difference, and Texas did much better with black kids and Hispanic kids. This also applied to further disaggregation, i.e. comparing English skills of Texas Hispanic kids to Wisconsin Hispanic kids, Texas was clearly doing better. Also in most, if not all, other subject areas where there were national testing results.
Exactly.... :thumbs2:

Again from the same OP article...
Our regression results revealed other findings as well. The most interesting is that union strength has a powerful negative effect on student performance. It's well-known that teachers unions aim to increase wages, which might lead to better teachers and increased test scores. But apparently, other union goals that are harmful to student performance—such as protecting poor teachers from being fired or blocking merit-based pay—have a greater impact. This may come as a shock to those who think teachers unions are a recipe for educational success.
I am not a lawyer. This is NOT legal advice.!
Nothing tempers idealism quite like the cold bath of reality.... SQLGeek
Post Reply

Return to “Off-Topic”