Psych patient OC's past 30.06/.07's, claims he's OK to do so.

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surprise_i'm_armed
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Psych patient OC's past 30.06/.07's, claims he's OK to do so.

#1

Post by surprise_i'm_armed » Sun May 19, 2019 3:11 pm

Saturday, 5/18/19, I was quietly reading the Sunday DMN, then was on the Internet, while OC'ing at the Lewisville Library. As soon as the 5 minute warning sounded that the library was closing, I packed up my gear to depart.

Well, I was approached by another library patron, a black gentleman who had been sitting near me. I had not noticed him being aware of my OC, but he had noticed. He said to me "I notice that you OC. I have a question for you. I work in a private practice (psychiatric) and we post both 30.06 and 30.07. We had a patient of ours come to his appointment open carrying. We mentioned our signage and the patient responded that since he's entering a private business, it's OK for him to OC. Is this legal?"

Wow! My inquisitor described how he made his boss aware of this, but they didn't call the LEO's on this patient. They appear to have just gone on with his appointment, and the patient left the office after the appointment was done, with no further discussion of his handgun, or any other questionable interaction.

We discussed this for a while and I told him (IANAL by the way) that if the patient didn't have an LTC, he was probably guilty of UCW, and if he did have an LTC he was either woefully ignorant of 30.07's rules, or openly defying them.

To complicate this matter, it is a psychiatric clinic, so maybe the office figured discretion was the better part of valor. Maybe the guy has an anger problem.

If I was in their shoes, I would send him a registered letter, telling him again that since they are posted both ways, to never bring a gun to their office again. Calling the LEO's on his next OC office visit is another avenue.

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SIA
Last edited by surprise_i'm_armed on Sun May 19, 2019 3:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Psych patient OC's past 30.06/.07's, claims he's OK to do so.

#2

Post by joe817 » Sun May 19, 2019 3:28 pm

surprise_i'm_armed wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 3:11 pm

We discussed this for a while and I told him (IANAL by the way) that if the patient didn't have an LTC, he was probably guilty of UCW, and if did have an LTC he was either woefully ignorant of 30.07's rules, or openly defying them.

To complicate this matter, it is a psychiatric clinic, so maybe the office figured discretion was the better part of valor. Maybe the guy has an anger problem. If I was in their shoes, I would send him a registered letter, telling him again that since they are posted both ways, to never bring a gun to their office again. Calling the LEO's on his next OC office visit is another avenue.

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SIA
Phew! That's a scary situation! :shock: He ignored both the signs AND the verbal warning. I think you gave good solid advice SIA. :thumbs2:

That sounded like a disaster waiting to happen. I think if I were the office manager, I would have called the police...even after he left. No telling if he's had a run in with the law, and is a powder keg waiting to explode. Very scary.
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Re: Psych patient OC's past 30.06/.07's, claims he's OK to do so.

#3

Post by Jusme » Sun May 19, 2019 3:41 pm

I am no longer surprised by those, who should know the law as LTC holders, who are woefully ignorant, either through poor instruction, or through, misinformation, obtained after their LTC class.
That being said, I am kind of on the fence about providing a private entity, information, on prohibiting carry, by LTC holders, whether they are psych patients or not. While the LTC holder was obviously ignorant about the law, he was no more so than those who posted the signage. In my opinion, if you are going to post signage, you should know exactly what you are trying to prohibit, as well as your responsibility, for enforcement. It is not my responsibility, to educate those who want to keep me out of their establishments. JMHO.
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Re: Psych patient OC's past 30.06/.07's, claims he's OK to do so.

#4

Post by TreyHouston » Sun May 19, 2019 3:42 pm

No LEO should be called. This needs to be addressed and discussed with his shrink. Thats what they are there for right?????
What do you expect the LEO to do? It would probably make the situation worse...
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Re: Psych patient OC's past 30.06/.07's, claims he's OK to do so.

#5

Post by rotor » Sun May 19, 2019 6:54 pm

Technically the only way the guy could be guilty of 30.06/07 laws would be if the patient had a LTC. If no LTC then guilty of open carry as we don't have constitutional carry. 06/07 only applies to LTC holders. They should have called police. Especially considering it is a PSYCHIATRIST the guy was seeing.

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Re: Psych patient OC's past 30.06/.07's, claims he's OK to do so.

#6

Post by JustSomeOldGuy » Mon May 20, 2019 10:43 am

If he's a psych patient, it also raises the questions of "would he be eligible for an LTC", and "did he make false statements on any 4473's"
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Re: Psych patient OC's past 30.06/.07's, claims he's OK to do so.

#7

Post by TomV » Mon May 20, 2019 11:18 am

Jusme wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 3:41 pm

That being said, I am kind of on the fence about providing a private entity, information, on prohibiting carry, by LTC holders, whether they are psych patients or not. While the LTC holder was obviously ignorant about the law, he was no more so than those who posted the signage. In my opinion, if you are going to post signage, you should know exactly what you are trying to prohibit, as well as your responsibility, for enforcement. It is not my responsibility, to educate those who want to keep me out of their establishments. JMHO.
In the case where SIA was directly asked I think it was handled appropriately. SIA was friendly and made an effort to answer the man's questions. She came across as knowledgeable and willing to help. I think this is the image we need to constantly work to convey to others.

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Re: Psych patient OC's past 30.06/.07's, claims he's OK to do so.

#8

Post by Alf » Mon May 20, 2019 11:40 am

rotor wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 6:54 pm
Technically the only way the guy could be guilty of 30.06/07 laws would be if the patient had a LTC. If no LTC then guilty of open carry as we don't have constitutional carry. 06/07 only applies to LTC holders. They should have called police. Especially considering it is a PSYCHIATRIST the guy was seeing.
BINGO! If he was carrying in violation of 46.02 then 30.06 and 30.07 signs are irrelevant. They're also irrelevant to peace officers, special investigators, parole officers, community supervision and corrections department officers, honorably retired peace officers, and travelers.


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Re: Psych patient OC's past 30.06/.07's, claims he's OK to do so.

#9

Post by TreyHouston » Mon May 20, 2019 2:27 pm

Alf wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 11:40 am
rotor wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 6:54 pm
Technically the only way the guy could be guilty of 30.06/07 laws would be if the patient had a LTC. If no LTC then guilty of open carry as we don't have constitutional carry. 06/07 only applies to LTC holders. They should have called police. Especially considering it is a PSYCHIATRIST the guy was seeing.
BINGO! If he was carrying in violation of 46.02 then 30.06 and 30.07 signs are irrelevant. They're also irrelevant to peace officers, special investigators, parole officers, community supervision and corrections department officers, honorably retired peace officers, and travelers.
Huh, thats a good point! He may work as one of the professions listed above...
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Re: Psych patient OC's past 30.06/.07's, claims he's OK to do so.

#10

Post by Russell » Tue May 21, 2019 1:19 pm

Jusme wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 3:41 pm
I am no longer surprised by those, who should know the law as LTC holders, who are woefully ignorant, either through poor instruction, or through, misinformation, obtained after their LTC class.

Yet there are those of us who continue to push for shortened class times, or for no classroom time required at all....
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Re: Psych patient OC's past 30.06/.07's, claims he's OK to do so.

#11

Post by chasfm11 » Tue May 21, 2019 1:53 pm

Russell wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 1:19 pm
Jusme wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 3:41 pm
I am no longer surprised by those, who should know the law as LTC holders, who are woefully ignorant, either through poor instruction, or through, misinformation, obtained after their LTC class.

Yet there are those of us who continue to push for shortened class times, or for no classroom time required at all....
Because there are 14 other States who have already validated that it is OK to have people carry firearms without any of that.

Please don't get me wrong. I think that instruction is important. I want to see more people get training in the handling of firearms and to be knowledgeable about the laws of use and carrying them. I just don't have a lot of confidence that mandating it really helps. If the patient in the example has an LTC, it underscores my point.

I drive an 11 ton RV. According to Texas laws, I can do it on my Class C driver's license. I'm not required to learn anything about its air brake system, its engine retarder or how to safely go down big hills or make narrow turns with it. Texas mandates that RVs which weigh 3,001 pounds more than mine but are similarly equipped have to have a special license (Class B - non-CDL) in order to drive their vehicles. They take a written test which is derived from the CDL test (90% of which is irrelavant to RVs) and have to take an on-road driving test in their vehicle. Many of the DPS offices do not know any thing about the 26,0001lb requirement, an estimated 50% of those who are required to have the special license don't and even the police don't handle it correctly. I was stopped by an officer in The Woodlands who berated me for "driving a 30,000lb vehicle recklessly" but didn't bat an eye when I handed him my class C license. He didn't know where the sticker for the gross vehicle weight was and it didn't seem to matter.

Part of the reason that this potentially explosive situation (older people driving long, heavy rigs) isn't a disaster is that those of use who have the vehicles have taken the time, on our own, to get the information about how to handle them safely. I put my family at risk every time I crawl behind the wheel if I don't understand the greater stopping distances or that the "service brakes" will not stop the vehicle at all if it gets out of control on a big hill. You do not use air brakes the same way as hydraulic ones. Until recently, my RV insurance premium was less than my passenger vehicles even though it has the potential for significantly greater losses, suggesting that the insurance companies agree that the current situation on vehicles like mine is not a problem.

I think a more common sense approach would be PSAs and public information. One of the reasons that there needs to be complex instruction on the laws is that the laws themselves are more complex than is reasonable. I'm certain that any LTC who hasn't spent time studying the laws after they took a class more than 2 years ago, has retained less than 50% of the class material about those laws And yet the rapid growth in LTCs has still not see a rise in legal violations or those would have shown up in the statistics.
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Re: Psych patient OC's past 30.06/.07's, claims he's OK to do so.

#12

Post by Soccerdad1995 » Tue May 21, 2019 1:58 pm

There are a multitude of reasons why the man might have been legal to OC past signs. Certain professions, VESP, signage is not compliant, etc. It's also a bit unclear as to whether he received verbal notice or a simple inquiry to which he responded. I once had an interaction with a Rudy's employee who asked me how I could legally OC past their "signs" (blue TABC signs). I'm sure he could have left our encounter and shared a similar version later on.

That said, it also could very well have been a 30.07 violation. Given that management was informed, they may have had some knowledge about this gentleman that the guy talking to SIA did not have (like that he is a cop). Who knows?
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Re: Psych patient OC's past 30.06/.07's, claims he's OK to do so.

#13

Post by WildBill » Tue May 21, 2019 2:05 pm

TreyHouston wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 3:42 pm
No LEO should be called. This needs to be addressed and discussed with his shrink. Thats what they are there for right?????
What do you expect the LEO to do? It would probably make the situation worse...
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surprise_i'm_armed
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Re: Psych patient OC's past 30.06/.07's, claims he's OK to do so.

#14

Post by surprise_i'm_armed » Wed May 22, 2019 2:45 pm

Update for TomV:

In the case where SIA was directly asked I think it was handled appropriately. SIA was friendly and made an effort to answer the man's questions. She came across as knowledgeable and willing to help.

SIA = surprise_i'm_armed = me = a guy, not a she.

I accept your apology sir. :-)

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