The importance of Pre-existing Knowledge for SD

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K.Mooneyham
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Re: The importance of Pre-existing Knowledge for SD

#16

Post by K.Mooneyham » Fri May 24, 2019 10:03 pm

O.F.Fascist wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 9:42 pm
In our legal system the burden of proof is not supposed to be on the accused, the burden of proof is on the prosecution to prove every element of the crime.
Supposed to be, yes. However, going by what Mr. MacYoung said in that article, it is just the opposite.


K.Mooneyham
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Re: The importance of Pre-existing Knowledge for SD

#17

Post by K.Mooneyham » Fri May 24, 2019 10:39 pm

AndyC wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 8:57 pm
All well and good - problem is, by pleading SD, you've said that you did shoot the guy; now YOU have to justify it.
I don't go around committing violence against other folks, no matter how upset I may get about some things. The problem is that according to the article, if a decent person defends him or her self against unprovoked violent aggression by what is most likely a repeat criminal, in who knows how many places across this nation, the legal system, as it was pointed out, would rather the decent person just have allowed themselves to be injured or killed. As I've stated before, I'm an aircraft mechanic and electronics technician. I can tell you how very complex systems on aircraft work because I have education and experience in my field. However, I am not a lawyer, and thus I cannot know every trick some prosecutor will use to put a notch in their belt. Besides, from what I gather (because luckily I've never personally been on trial, never even been arrested), you aren't allowed to explain anything. They just ask questions that are worded in such a manner that there is no correct answer (the classic "sir, have you stopped beating your wife, yes or no" comes to mind) and that may well get you put behind bars, where you will be raped, beaten, and/or killed. I find that to be a perversion of justice. I really do not believe that is how the Founding Fathers intended things to work in the USA.

PC 9.32 regarding the use of deadly force states "to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force". However, Mr. MacYoung's scenario would seem to say that since the knife in the assailant's hand didn't make contact prior to the self-defense shooting, that the person who defended himself is now guilty. That would seem to fly in the face of the word "attempted". Again, parsing every little word down to the point where it can put a decent person behind bars for defending him or her self against an unprovoked violent attack is the domain of those who are experts in the law, to the point of seemingly perverting it. Most people, myself included, do not have the ability to counter that. And, if the only way to SUCCESSFULLY defend oneself is to be able to hire a talented lawyer, well, that would seem to make justice something only for the rich. Again, I do not believe the Founding Fathers intended things to be that way.

I wish I were as eloquent as TAM on these matters, but I simply am not. I guess that puts me at a severe disadvantage to criminals, and the legal system. Mores the pity for the future of our nation, and those who will inhabit it.

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Re: The importance of Pre-existing Knowledge for SD

#18

Post by Pawpaw » Fri May 24, 2019 10:44 pm

AndyC wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 8:57 pm
All well and good - problem is, by pleading SD, you've said that you did shoot the guy; now YOU have to justify it.
No, YOU only have to tell the story (hopefully true) to your attorney. You should never be on the stand testifying. You can't be compelled to testify against yourself.
Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence. - John Adams

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Re: The importance of Pre-existing Knowledge for SD

#19

Post by Liberty » Sat May 25, 2019 7:42 am

Realistically, this is Texas and from what I have seen and read, defensive shoots pretty much get a lot of leeway in our system.

As I see it:
Defensive shooting could be a defense to the charge. This means it is up to the defender to convince the Judge and Jury that it was indeed self-defense. In the above scenario, a good defense lawyer should be able paint a more sympathetic case.

Although its normally a bad idea to let an accused take the stand. Sometimes it a good lawyer will allow it to happen. "Never say never"

We have the best legal system money can buy. There is a reason that the state supplied defense lawyers make a lot less money than DAs, assistant DAs, and private sector lawyers. A reason why big time dealers get less prison time than the drug addict lusers.
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Re: The importance of Pre-existing Knowledge for SD

#20

Post by chasfm11 » Sat May 25, 2019 7:48 am

While I've like the idea of National reciprocity, this topic is the dirty secret of the big problem behind it. Let's assume NR passed and you decided to take your SD firearm to New Jersey. You were attacked in one of NJ's many cesspools and used your gun to defend yourself. Having lived in NJ and still having friends there, I all most guarantee you that there are no SD friendly District Attorneys there. They would salivate to put someone on trial who dared to bring a gun into their backyard. Fair trial? Presumption of innocence? Pfft!

Reading the information in this thread, I don't see a way out except for expensive expert witnesses. It is very sobering.
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Re: The importance of Pre-existing Knowledge for SD

#21

Post by The Annoyed Man » Sat May 25, 2019 8:14 am

Paladin wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 12:13 pm
The opening testimony sounds like something right out of Harold Fish's Story
The "gory details" of which can be found here. This is as bad a case I’d prosecutorial misconduct as I’ve ever heard of : http://www.haroldfishdefense.org/.

Coconino County is dominated by Flagstaff - the county seat - which may be the most leftist town in all of AZ thanks to the toxic influence of Northern Arizona State University, which dominates the city's politics. Flagstaff has become Arizona's Berkeley....drug problems and all. The left destroys everything it touches.

The last time I passed through there, we spent the night in a local motel. Before leaving the following morning, we took our dog to a local off-leash dog park for some exercise. There was an obviously unemployed dope-head there with a wolf/dog that was terrorizing any other dog that entered the park, while it’s owner completely ignored his dog's behavior. When I asked the owner to control his dog, he suggested to me that should go have carnal knowledge of myself. It was so bad that I considered shooting his dog (I was armed at the time). Realizing that, in Flagstaff, shooting a local's dog was going to buy me more trouble than it was worth, we left the dog park ASAP. Flagstaff is a beautiful place, but it is a fecal hole, thanks to leftist politics. Almost anywhere else in AZ, I would expect to be treated relatively fairly by law enforcement and the courts in a righteous self defense shooting. I would expect no such thing in Coconino County. If you pass that way, drive on through. Admire the scenery, but keep going. Spend the night further on down the road.
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AndyC
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Re: The importance of Pre-existing Knowledge for SD

#22

Post by AndyC » Sat May 25, 2019 10:01 am

Pawpaw wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 10:44 pm
AndyC wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 8:57 pm
All well and good - problem is, by pleading SD, you've said that you did shoot the guy; now YOU have to justify it.
No, YOU only have to tell the story (hopefully true) to your attorney. You should never be on the stand testifying. You can't be compelled to testify against yourself.
Strawman argument. I said you have to justify it - I didn't say or imply that you have to take the stand. You HAVE to explain your actions at some point.
Last edited by AndyC on Sat May 25, 2019 10:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The importance of Pre-existing Knowledge for SD

#23

Post by AndyC » Sat May 25, 2019 10:06 am

K.Mooneyham wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 10:03 pm
O.F.Fascist wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 9:42 pm
In our legal system the burden of proof is not supposed to be on the accused, the burden of proof is on the prosecution to prove every element of the crime.
Supposed to be, yes. However, going by what Mr. MacYoung said in that article, it is just the opposite.
The reality, like it or not, is that by pleading SD you've admitted you did the deed; now the burden is on you to explain why it was legal/necessary/etc - hopefully well enough that you don't even get charged.

See "defense to prosecution", "affirmative defense", etc.
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Re: The importance of Pre-existing Knowledge for SD

#24

Post by Bitter Clinger » Sat May 25, 2019 11:13 am

Pawpaw wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 7:11 pm
DynamicDan wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 1:54 pm
Let your attorney do your talking for you.
:iagree:

That's the thought I've had since the first post. If you're the defendant in a criminal trial and you're on the stand, you've proven two points.

1. You're a fool.
2. You hired a fool for an attorney.
:iagree: Shut up, Lawyer up. Over & out.
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bbhack
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Re: The importance of Pre-existing Knowledge for SD

#25

Post by bbhack » Sat May 25, 2019 10:02 pm

K.Mooneyham wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 2:05 am
And, yet again, just something else to make me even more cynical about our so-called "justice" system, which is biased toward violent criminals. DAs and ADAs who consider good people with clean records to be guilty until they can prove they are innocent, while bending over backwards to let violent felons back out on the streets. I bet they all get a good laugh at all the lives of decent people they've ruined.
I might have started to understand this listening to some cops here in SA. I think there is sympathy for a horrible life the perp has lived. They sometimes overlook the psychopath component and go straight for sympathy. If there is something to this, it applies to prosecutors and judges also.
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K.Mooneyham
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Re: The importance of Pre-existing Knowledge for SD

#26

Post by K.Mooneyham » Sat May 25, 2019 11:44 pm

bbhack wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 10:02 pm
K.Mooneyham wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 2:05 am
And, yet again, just something else to make me even more cynical about our so-called "justice" system, which is biased toward violent criminals. DAs and ADAs who consider good people with clean records to be guilty until they can prove they are innocent, while bending over backwards to let violent felons back out on the streets. I bet they all get a good laugh at all the lives of decent people they've ruined.
I might have started to understand this listening to some cops here in SA. I think there is sympathy for a horrible life the perp has lived. They sometimes overlook the psychopath component and go straight for sympathy. If there is something to this, it applies to prosecutors and judges also.
I would never claim to be a saint, I've certainly made my share of mistakes. However, 21 years in the Air Force, which is included in almost 30 years working on aircraft, I am a firm believer in "there's a right way, and a wrong way"...and people who do willful, unprovoked violence to others have chosen the wrong way.

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