TexasCHLforum.com

BeanCounter wrote:Interesting penetration comparison

.223 55 grain HP vs .40 S&W 180 grain HP vs 12 ga 2 ¾" rifled slug.

http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?option ... &Itemid=26

MechAg94 wrote:IMO, you need a pistol and a long gun. Beyond the need to use good hollow point pistol ammo, I vote to use what you trust to work. As far as the long gun, I think shotgun or 223 rifle are best for minimizing penetration. With the shotgun, you can select smaller buckshot which should penetrate less.

For me, I use a Zastava N-PAP AK. I have a rail mounted light and a magazine loaded with Winchester PDX defender ammo. I expect it to reliably expand and not act like FMJ. For short range accuracy it is more than adequate.

In all honesty, I think Bullet/Cartridge Selection is more important than caliber/gauge. Select a bullet type that has good soft tissue performance, but not designed to penetrate obstacles as much. A lot of police/military ammo is designed to penetrate light obstacles and still work. I think simple soft point hunting ammo might be better than law enforcement stuff if penetration is driving your decision. That applies to rifle or shotgun ammo. I am not sure where Win PDX ammo fits in that.

On the guns, your list has some pretty expensive selections. Reliability is key. You don't need an expensive battle rifle, just a good gun you trust. Preferably one that can mount a light and maybe a laser. A $400 defense shotgun will work. So will a $600 AK. So will a much less expensive AR. Whatever you get, put some rounds through it at the range and make sure it runs without any issues and handles the ammo you select.

Nuts wrote:My first line of defense is a 130 lb German Shepard. Nobody's coming in that doesn't belong without him on them. Everyone's attention will be on him and not on me and I'm his back up.

ScottDLS wrote:

cyphertext wrote:

ScottDLS wrote:

Nuts wrote:.223/5.56 has less of a chance of over penetration then 9mm.

I seriously doubt that... There's not nearly enough information in the hypothetical to make that blanket statement. As a rule, all else being equal (which it never is) the bullet with the greater velocity and less front facing surface area, will penetrate more of the same material, than the slower fatter one.

We've all seen the Youtube with the 9mm going through 5 sheets of drywall while the 5.56 doesn't. It's a cool video, but has effectively no application to real life. To get the best answer, you have to consider the material, the angle, the distance, the number of different materials, bullet type (FMJ, HP, JHP, lead, etc.), distance, and so on and so on. Just because somebody got a 55gr FMJ 5.56 round to tumble in a few sheets of drywall doesn't mean it's going to do the same thing in your house.

If I'm faced with a bad guy in my bedroom, and have a choice between my 9mm SIG and my 16" AR-15 carbine, I'm taking the pistol. If the guy's shooting at me from down the street, I'll take my rifle. No way I'm popping off a 5.56 in my house thinking it has less chance of hitting the kids' in their bedroom than a 9mm.

Experts in LE and military would disagree with you. Of course it comes down to bullet choice. I doubt that folks who are addressing penetration with 5.56mm are advocating using xm855 as the ammo of choice. But even the 55gr fmj has shown to lose velocity and break apart when impacting common household building materials such as sheetrock.

So the 5.56 tumbles in some materials...including people... Pick 5 common household materials and shoot with a 55gr FMJ and a 115gr 9mm. Decide which gun you want to hide behind all the materials from... I'll take the 9mm to be shot at with, especially out of a pistol, but even a carbine. Obviously a hypothetical...I'll pick neither in real life.

I've shot .223/5.56 out of rifles and 9mm out of pistols and machine pistols against all kinds of materials and the 5.56 almost always punches through. My apocryphal examples are Mini14 at a steel soda syrup canister. Rifle went through both sides. 9mm bounced off .357 went through one side. 1/2 in plywood rifle straight through, 9mm you could dig out of the dirt behind the plywood.

I would like to see something other than a Youtube video as evidence that a 9mm regularly penetrates more than a 5.56mm.

doncb wrote:Really, all of the talk about putting several pieces of sheetrock together or even a few inches apart doesn't prove much. To be realistic you need to set up like your home. In my case, the next room that someone might be in is 12', a closet door, clothes and two layers of sheetrock away. To be realistic, a test would need to be set up that way. Worried about the room on the other side? Add 10' and another wall.

doncb wrote:Really, all of the talk about putting several pieces of sheetrock together or even a few inches apart doesn't prove much. To be realistic you need to set up like your home. In my case, the next room that someone might be in is 12', a closet door, clothes and two layers of sheetrock away. To be realistic, a test would need to be set up that way. Worried about the room on the other side? Add 10' and another wall.