Violate Your Oath And Turn On American Citizens At Your Legal Peril, Gun-Grabbers

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The Annoyed Man
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Re: Violate Your Oath And Turn On American Citizens At Your Legal Peril, Gun-Grabbers

#46

Post by The Annoyed Man » Fri Sep 20, 2019 7:18 am

K.Mooneyham wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:41 pm
I think a few things get overlooked in this topic. One, the power of people to simply ignore things, for starters. Even in Europe, where most guns are illegal or heavily regulated, people retain firearms. And they do NOT have our history behind them, a history of personal ownership of firearms. Two, the capacity of police officers who don't really want to enforce something to simply not see the thing they are supposed to enforce. Third, the fact that state and local police just might not agree with a law of the type y'all are discussing (please refer to various sherrifs around the nation who have stated they won't waste resources enforcing new gun control laws). Finally, the complete inadequacy of the Federal government to obtain enough personnel willing and able to go forth and spend day after day confiscating firearms by whatever means, be it door-to-door or pulling over random people and searching their vehicles. Plus, the more draconian something like that turns, the more it will irritate people. I'm just a dumb mechanic, though, so what do I know.
You know more than a lot of people, so don’t sell yourself short. I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. When you look at the compliance rate in states like New York and Connecticut regarding MSRs and "high capacity" handgun and rifle magazines, it’s something less than 1% .... and nobody in law enforcement seems willing to pursue it any further.

From my own personal experience..... Back in the 1990s, the city of Pasadena, California, passed a local ordinance requiring registration of ammunition purchases. Besides the absolute immorality of the law, it faced several very practical challenges that made it unenforceable, but there were two main ones.

#1: For one thing, Pasadena is not a huge town. One could drive 10 minutes, and buy all the ammo one wanted in Arcadia, Altadena, South Pasadena, and Eagle Rock — all towns with city limits contiguous to Pasadena's, and not having any ammo purchase registration requirements. For another thing, each buyer had to log each purchase as a separate line item on a paper form kept by the cashier before the buyer could pay for the ammo. In addition to the buyer's personal information with address and CDL/State ID number, the information consisted of caliber, quantity, brand, and lot#. So if you went and bought say two 50 round boxes each of American Eagle 230 grain .45 ACP FMJ, a 25 round box of Corbon 180 grain .45 ACP +P JHP, a 50 round box of American Eagle 240 grain .44 Magnum JSP, and a 500 round brick of PMC .22 LR (this would have all been a typical purchase for me at my LGS at the time), that purchase would require 4 separate line items on the city form—each item having my name, address, CDL#, caliber, quantity, and lot#. A couple of times was all it took for me to decide to drive the extra 10 minutes to avoid the hassle. And if that decision was easy for people like me, it was even easier for criminals.

#2: At the time of passage, the city loudly trumpeted its new initiative aimed at "stopping gun violence". The ordinance mandated that these written ammo purchase records be collected from the gun stores and maintained by the PPD, but the city was unwilling to hire the new personnel necessary to staff and administrate this law. Why? Because they literally had no idea how many law-abiding pasadena residents owned firearms and shot them for regular entertainment/practice. They imagined that their scheme would disrupt criminals only, and that the law abiding wouldn’t mind. Pasadena had a population of about 130,000 people at the time, so the ammunition purchase records began to add up quickly. It became a record keeping nightmare for the PPD, and finally, the chief of police unilaterally informed the city manager that he would no longer comply with the administering the ordinance as he was faced with having to pull officers off the street in order to staff the requirement. A few weeks later, the city council quietly repealed the ordinance.

Today, California has a recently passed statewide law with a similar intent. But Las Vegas, Nevada is a 3.5 hour drive from Pasadena, and you can buy 1000 round cases of ammo for cheap in Vegas. They can’t stop and search EVERY car coming down I-15 into California m Nevada, which number in the 100s of thousands per day.....and that doesn’t include all the possible secondary routes. And now that California’s draconian new laws have effectively emasculated the AR15 (so they think), I’m willing to bet that there are THOUSANDS of formerly law-abiding people who kept the original parts when they replaced them with bullet buttons, etc. With no more recourse before the law, there’s no more incentive to try and remain compliant. And I’ll bet a sizable chunk that a lot of them reinstalled the OEM magazine release buttons, and pistol grips, and flash hiders, etc. etc., onto their AR15s, picked up a couple thousand rounds of 5.56 on their next trip to Vegas, and salted it all away for the day when things REALLY go to crap there.

YES, a state can make ownership more onerous, but it can’t eliminate it, and they will push things to a certain point before The People say no more. Lexington/Concorde didn’t happen in a vacuum. When the conditions are right (a thing which we may not individually get to determine), and The People have collectively had enough, it will happen, and there won’t be a thing the state can do to stop it.

At every approach to a tipping point, there are some who are more willing than others to hoist the Jolly Roger. Even among our illustrious founders, this was so. Some were hotter firebrands than others. Some counseled more patience and negotiations than others. But in the end, it wasn’t so much The People's decision to revolt, as it was the British state's decision to push actions like marching on Lexington/Concorde to forcibly disarm the colonists. The crown passed all the harassing laws it wanted, and there were relatively minor acts of political vandalism like the Boston Tea Party, and published diatribes of protest in response. But direct action, with lead flying through the air, didn’t happen until the crown moved to physically disarm the colonists. THAT is when The People collectively stopped trying to keep the peace between themselves and their oppressors.

So yeah, there are going to always be some who will be more ready than others to hoist the Jolly Roger. And as long as gov’t limits its outrages to simply harassing the law-abiding, most people will try to fly low and avoid the radar, while a much smaller percentage of people will be the firebrands who berate both gov’t for its excesses, and berate their fellow citizens for keeping their anger and resentments under control, and being slow to want to take up arms. But as soon as gov’t actually attacks and tries to disarm a whole town, then I remain convinced that this quiet majority will have had enough, and we'll have Lexington/Concorde all over again
Give me Liberty, or I'll get up and get it myself.—Hookalakah Meshobbab
I don't carry because of the odds, I carry because of the stakes.—The Annoyed Boy
My dream is to have lived my life so well that future generations of leftists will demand my name be removed from buildings.

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Re: Violate Your Oath And Turn On American Citizens At Your Legal Peril, Gun-Grabbers

#47

Post by The Annoyed Man » Fri Sep 20, 2019 7:19 am

K.Mooneyham wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:41 pm
I think a few things get overlooked in this topic. One, the power of people to simply ignore things, for starters. Even in Europe, where most guns are illegal or heavily regulated, people retain firearms. And they do NOT have our history behind them, a history of personal ownership of firearms. Two, the capacity of police officers who don't really want to enforce something to simply not see the thing they are supposed to enforce. Third, the fact that state and local police just might not agree with a law of the type y'all are discussing (please refer to various sherrifs around the nation who have stated they won't waste resources enforcing new gun control laws). Finally, the complete inadequacy of the Federal government to obtain enough personnel willing and able to go forth and spend day after day confiscating firearms by whatever means, be it door-to-door or pulling over random people and searching their vehicles. Plus, the more draconian something like that turns, the more it will irritate people. I'm just a dumb mechanic, though, so what do I know.
You know more than a lot of people, so don’t sell yourself short. I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. When you look at the compliance rate in states like New York and Connecticut regarding MSRs and "high capacity" handgun and rifle magazines, it’s something less than 1% .... and nobody in law enforcement seems willing to pursue it any further.

From my own personal experience..... Back in the 1990s, the city of Pasadena, California, passed a local ordinance requiring registration of ammunition purchases. Besides the absolute immorality of the law, it faced several very practical challenges that made it unenforceable, but there were two main ones.

#1: For one thing, Pasadena is not a huge town. One could drive 10 minutes, and buy all the ammo one wanted in Arcadia, Altadena, South Pasadena, and Eagle Rock — all towns with city limits contiguous to Pasadena's, and not having any ammo purchase registration requirements. For another thing, each buyer had to log each purchase as a separate line item on a paper form kept by the cashier before the buyer could pay for the ammo. In addition to the buyer's personal information with address and CDL/State ID number, the information consisted of caliber, quantity, brand, and lot#. So if you went and bought say two 50 round boxes each of American Eagle 230 grain .45 ACP FMJ, a 25 round box of Corbon 180 grain .45 ACP +P JHP, a 50 round box of American Eagle 240 grain .44 Magnum JSP, and a 500 round brick of PMC .22 LR (this would have all been a typical purchase for me at my LGS at the time), that purchase would require 4 separate line items on the city form—each item having my name, address, CDL#, caliber, quantity, and lot#. A couple of times was all it took for me to decide to drive the extra 10 minutes to avoid the hassle. And if that decision was easy for people like me, it was even easier for criminals.

#2: At the time of passage, the city loudly trumpeted its new initiative aimed at "stopping gun violence". The ordinance mandated that these written ammo purchase records be collected from the gun stores and maintained by the PPD, but the city was unwilling to hire the new personnel necessary to staff and administrate this law. Why? Because they literally had no idea how many law-abiding pasadena residents owned firearms and shot them for regular entertainment/practice. They imagined that their scheme would disrupt criminals only, and that the law abiding wouldn’t mind. Pasadena had a population of about 130,000 people at the time, so the ammunition purchase records began to add up quickly. It became a record keeping nightmare for the PPD, and finally, the chief of police unilaterally informed the city manager that he would no longer comply with the administering the ordinance as he was faced with having to pull officers off the street in order to staff the requirement. A few weeks later, the city council quietly repealed the ordinance.

Today, California has a recently passed statewide law with a similar intent. But Las Vegas, Nevada is a 3.5 hour drive from Pasadena, and you can buy 1000 round cases of ammo for cheap in Vegas. They can’t stop and search EVERY car coming down I-15 into California m Nevada, which number in the 100s of thousands per day.....and that doesn’t include all the possible secondary routes. And now that California’s draconian new laws have effectively emasculated the AR15 (so they think), I’m willing to bet that there are THOUSANDS of formerly law-abiding people who kept the original parts when they replaced them with bullet buttons, etc. With no more recourse before the law, there’s no more incentive to try and remain compliant. And I’ll bet a sizable chunk that a lot of them reinstalled the OEM magazine release buttons, and pistol grips, and flash hiders, etc. etc., onto their AR15s, picked up a couple thousand rounds of 5.56 on their next trip to Vegas, and salted it all away for the day when things REALLY go to crap there.

YES, a state can make ownership more onerous, but it can’t eliminate it, and they will push things to a certain point before The People say no more. Lexington/Concorde didn’t happen in a vacuum. When the conditions are right (a thing which we may not individually get to determine), and The People have collectively had enough, it will happen, and there won’t be a thing the state can do to stop it.

At every approach to a tipping point, there are some who are more willing than others to hoist the Jolly Roger. Even among our illustrious founders, this was so. Some were hotter firebrands than others. Some counseled more patience and negotiations than others. But in the end, it wasn’t so much The People's decision to revolt, as it was the British state's decision to push actions like marching on Lexington/Concorde to forcibly disarm the colonists. The crown passed all the harassing laws it wanted, and there were relatively minor acts of political vandalism like the Boston Tea Party, and published diatribes of protest in response. But direct action, with lead flying through the air, didn’t happen until the crown moved to physically disarm the colonists. THAT is when The People collectively stopped trying to keep the peace between themselves and their oppressors.

So yeah, there are going to always be some who will be more ready than others to hoist the Jolly Roger. And as long as gov’t limits its outrages to simply harassing the law-abiding, most people will try to fly low and avoid the radar, while a much smaller percentage of people will be the firebrands who berate both gov’t for its excesses, and berate their fellow citizens for keeping their anger and resentments under control, and being slow to want to take up arms. But as soon as gov’t actually attacks and tries to disarm a whole town, then I remain convinced that this quiet majority will have had enough, and we'll have Lexington/Concorde all over again
Give me Liberty, or I'll get up and get it myself.—Hookalakah Meshobbab
I don't carry because of the odds, I carry because of the stakes.—The Annoyed Boy
My dream is to have lived my life so well that future generations of leftists will demand my name be removed from buildings.

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Re: Violate Your Oath And Turn On American Citizens At Your Legal Peril, Gun-Grabbers

#48

Post by 03Lightningrocks » Fri Sep 20, 2019 7:39 am

OK... I can't resist. I have to make another post on this thread. While I really don't imagine an armed resistance to any weapons ban that includes an order to turn them in, I can believe there will be major passive resistance. I think most folks will simply refuse to turn in their weapons and magazines. The government just simply does not have the resources or the will to attempt any door to door confiscation. Unfortunately, if one is forced to use their firearm in self defense, they will then file charges and take your weapon.


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Re: Violate Your Oath And Turn On American Citizens At Your Legal Peril, Gun-Grabbers

#49

Post by mayor » Fri Sep 20, 2019 7:57 am

03Lightningrocks wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 7:39 am
...Unfortunately, if one is forced to use their firearm in self defense, they will then file charges and take your weapon.
And you can't take them to the range, you have to "hide" them. And there's the rub. We have to do all we can, in the words of Barney Fife, to "nip it in the bud".


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Re: Violate Your Oath And Turn On American Citizens At Your Legal Peril, Gun-Grabbers

#50

Post by crazy2medic » Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:09 am

The founding fathers intended the 2nd Amendment to be the Trip wire, for once the Govt disarms you and you no longer have the means to resist, you are now a slave to the State!
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animating contest of freedom, — go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms.” “Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!”
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Our founding fathers had to make some hard choices, it looks like we may have to make those same choice!
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Re: Violate Your Oath And Turn On American Citizens At Your Legal Peril, Gun-Grabbers

#51

Post by eyedoc » Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:32 am

Once our country had young men and women who looked to make the future better for their heirs even at the risk of death. Now, I fear our young are scared to risk their present to make a better future. Maybe it will fall on the elderly who are already facing the end of their future to make a better future for those that come after them.

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Re: Violate Your Oath And Turn On American Citizens At Your Legal Peril, Gun-Grabbers

#52

Post by Paladin » Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:16 am

jason812 wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:34 pm
Paladin wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:12 pm
Beto is only polling 2-4% and I think that while his words are a boost for gun-grabbers, they are mostly a childish, desperate cry for attention.

I think it does bring attention to the issue that criminals like Beto should be properly prosecuted and prohibited from running for political office. People who do burglary and drunken hit-and-runs should never be eligible for political office in the first place.

The whole Epstein episode has clearly shown that far too many world leaders are awful human beings making them subject to blackmail and manipulation. Felons should simply not be in political office or hold government positions of any sort.
Irish Bob messed up and openly stated what the lefts true agenda is.
The fake Mexican aside, Rasmussen shows Seventy percent of Democrats favor the idea a mandatory "buyback" of all semi-automatic weapons

Those people do not believe in democracy... they are tyranocrats working towards the next Reign of Terror and boot on the face of humanity forever... they just need our guns first and would do ANYTHING to get them.
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Re: Violate Your Oath And Turn On American Citizens At Your Legal Peril, Gun-Grabbers

#53

Post by eyedoc » Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:29 am

Paladin wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:16 am
jason812 wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:34 pm
Paladin wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:12 pm
Beto is only polling 2-4% and I think that while his words are a boost for gun-grabbers, they are mostly a childish, desperate cry for attention.

I think it does bring attention to the issue that criminals like Beto should be properly prosecuted and prohibited from running for political office. People who do burglary and drunken hit-and-runs should never be eligible for political office in the first place.

The whole Epstein episode has clearly shown that far too many world leaders are awful human beings making them subject to blackmail and manipulation. Felons should simply not be in political office or hold government positions of any sort.
Irish Bob messed up and openly stated what the lefts true agenda is.
The fake Mexican aside, Rasmussen shows Seventy percent of Democrats favor the idea a mandatory "buyback" of all semi-automatic weapons

Those people do not believe in democracy... they are tyranocrats working towards the next Reign of Terror and boot on the face of humanity forever... they just need our guns first and would do ANYTHING to get them.
The violence demonstrated by antifa and other liberals towards those that disagree with their views shows what will happen to those who question the liberal masters if they ever gain control. The 2nd is what protects all our other freedoms. Once it goes, they all go.


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Re: Violate Your Oath And Turn On American Citizens At Your Legal Peril, Gun-Grabbers

#54

Post by Grayling813 » Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:47 am

There is at least one group of people in this country who have publicly stated they will resist. Read the attached pdf.

The capabilities of the Green Berets to organize armed resistance cannot be ignored. That's what they were trained to do.

I may be wrong to resist a tyrannical government according to Romans 13, however I do not believe that I will stand before God to be judged and cast into hell for defending innocent people's freedom by whatever means necessary.
Upon entering heaven, I fully expect to find Moses there, despite his killing of the Egyptian who was beating one of the Hebrew people and his defiance of the Pharaoh's government.
Attachments
Protecting the Second Amendment.pdf
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Re: Violate Your Oath And Turn On American Citizens At Your Legal Peril, Gun-Grabbers

#55

Post by LucasMcCain » Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:26 am

Well this thread blew up since I posted to it.

I'm seeing a lot of projection by older folks about what the public response to the government confiscating people's property by lethal force would be. Please keep in mind that there are lots of people younger than you, who don't have families, who aren't comfortable and soft. I'm not trying to be offensive; I have a family, and I'm comfortable and soft. Not everyone is. Many are fresh out of military service in the middle east, where they have learned what insurgency looks like, and they know how the US tries to counter it, what works, and what doesn't. Many are patriotic Americans that will not stand idly by and watch the country turn into a totalitarian wasteland.

There are more US gun owners than there are members of every branch of every military of every country in the entire world combined. If 3% rose up, that's several million people. There are already states declaring that they will not recognize or comply with a federal confiscation mandate. The lines for civil war are beginning to be drawn.

To answer the question about why I didn't resist the first AWB, it didn't involve confiscation, and I was like 13. If things crank up, I'm not saying that I'm going to go out for blood in the streets, but there are plenty of younger men that I believe will. Lots of people have forgotten history, but many haven't and will recognize the beginning of tyranny and fascism for what it is.

I sincerely hope that we see a conservative renaissance, and that Civil War II happens after I live a long and happy life and pass from this world. I'm just not really optimistic about it working out that way. I think once Antifa starts killing people and patriots start killing them right back, it's going to be on, for better or worse.
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Re: Violate Your Oath And Turn On American Citizens At Your Legal Peril, Gun-Grabbers

#56

Post by Lynyrd » Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:48 am

If gun grabbing politicians start a war, it won't be a civil war. It will be an armed rebellion against an unjust government. Our civil war was fought by two armies with the states divided over economic issues, one of which happened to be slavery. I cannot envision any liberal supporters taking up arms and fighting gun owners in an effort to confiscate their weapons. Instead, it will be gun owners against those federal employees who refuse to uphold their oath of office.

The closest this country has come to armed rebellion since the 1700’s was an event that happened near a bridge in Arizona in 2014. Armed civilians confronted federal agents and the feds backed down. This event happened over cattle grazing. The courts eventually said the feds were wrong, and acquitted the “protesters” of the charges brought against them. If anyone had fired a shot that day, I believe the situation would have escalated rapidly. And this was because the government was trying to confiscate cattle.
If cattle can provoke that kind of disobedience to an unjust government, imagine what the effort to disarming law-abiding Americans will provoke.
Do what you say you're gonna do.


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Re: Violate Your Oath And Turn On American Citizens At Your Legal Peril, Gun-Grabbers

#57

Post by cirus » Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:11 pm

If I didn't have a wife and kids I would worry about it as much. At the same time I'm not gonna let someone enslave me. I came into this world a free man and I'm going out the same way. We need to do everything possible to avoid armed conflict but If the other side wants trouble they've come to the right place. I'll oblige them.

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Re: Violate Your Oath And Turn On American Citizens At Your Legal Peril, Gun-Grabbers

#58

Post by narcissist » Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:51 pm

Wait until they start forcing Manufacturers of every gun made after a certain date to fire one round out of the gun. To have it logged kept with the serial number, buyers info and they will probably force us to use a FFL to transfer the gun. Which would be registration but also a way to track exactly (in their eyes) who used it in a crime. Also I bet they add even if the gun is lost or stolen you are Still responsible for whoever uses it in a crime. I believe with Class lll items you are responsible if its lost or stolen and used in a crime, Im not 100% sure even though I own a few? Paranoid thinking, cant help it :???:
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Re: Violate Your Oath And Turn On American Citizens At Your Legal Peril, Gun-Grabbers

#59

Post by ScottDLS » Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:06 pm

narcissist wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:51 pm
Wait until they start forcing Manufacturers of every gun made after a certain date to fire one round out of the gun. To have it logged kept with the serial number, buyers info and they will probably force us to use a FFL to transfer the gun. Which would be registration but also a way to track exactly (in their eyes) who used it in a crime. Also I bet they add even if the gun is lost or stolen you are Still responsible for whoever uses it in a crime. I believe with Class lll items you are responsible if its lost or stolen and used in a crime, Im not 100% sure even though I own a few? Paranoid thinking, cant help it :???:
Maryland already did this. It turned out to be completely useless didn’t help solve any crimes and was a colossal waste of time. It’s so easy to alter or swap the barrel. Next up, micro stamping and smart (aka dumb) guns.
4/13/1996 Completed CHL Class, 4/16/1996 Fingerprints, Affidavits, and Application Mailed, 10/4/1996 Received CHL, renewed 1998, 2002, 2006, 2011, 2016...). "ATF... Uhhh...heh...heh....Alcohol, tobacco, and GUNS!! Cool!!!!"

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Re: Violate Your Oath And Turn On American Citizens At Your Legal Peril, Gun-Grabbers

#60

Post by narcissist » Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:22 pm

ScottDLS wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:06 pm
narcissist wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:51 pm
Wait until they start forcing Manufacturers of every gun made after a certain date to fire one round out of the gun. To have it logged kept with the serial number, buyers info and they will probably force us to use a FFL to transfer the gun. Which would be registration but also a way to track exactly (in their eyes) who used it in a crime. Also I bet they add even if the gun is lost or stolen you are Still responsible for whoever uses it in a crime. I believe with Class lll items you are responsible if its lost or stolen and used in a crime, Im not 100% sure even though I own a few? Paranoid thinking, cant help it :???:
Maryland already did this. It turned out to be completely useless didn’t help solve any crimes and was a colossal waste of time. It’s so easy to alter or swap the barrel. Next up, micro stamping and smart (aka dumb) guns.
Didn't realize it, ive noticed even glock now has multiple "hidden" serial numbers but makes sense what you said about not solving crimes/waste of time. I did hear about the "dumb" guns but gotta check out that micro stamping bull.
One of my biggest mistakes in life...Is Believing people will show me the same love I've shown them. :reddevil

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