FFL denied right to sell from home by HOA

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OldCannon
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FFL denied right to sell from home by HOA

#1

Post by OldCannon »

So was listening to news this morning(KLBJ on AM, in case anybody was interested :-) , seems there's an FFL who wanted to operate out of his home from a subdivision in Pflugerville. The HOA told him he couldn't and the FFL is apparently suing. I was hoping to hear more, but had to get to work.

Problem is: I can't find anything to back this up in local news sites. Does anybody have a link? I'd love to know the details of this.
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seamusTX
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Re: FFL denied right to sell from home by HOA

#2

Post by seamusTX »

I looked and could not find anything on the web.

Since I seem to be the devil's advocate today, what if the title of this thread was, "Homeowner attempts to violate covenants [which he voluntarily signed] by operating retail business in home"?

This kind of thing happens all the time. I have even heard of people holding Bible study and other religious meetings in their home, who had the HOA come down on them.

- Jim
Fear, anger, hatred, and greed. The devil's all-you-can-eat buffet.

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Re: FFL denied right to sell from home by HOA

#3

Post by bayouhazard »

Many HOA have deed restrictions prohibiting businesses.
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Re: FFL denied right to sell from home by HOA

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Post by OldCannon »

Yeah, I understand. I don't know all the facts, so it's important to find out. The HOA in question is next to mine. My HOA states that you may operate a business so long as it's not "dangerous", but I would hardly describe selling firearms as dangerous, nor could I comprehend somebody (other than a rabid anti-gun nut) thinking it so (selling a personal firearm is a far more dangerous prospect, but they don't block that).

From what I _heard_, the HOA passed a resolution that you could not sell firearms from your home. However, the discussion seemed to revolve around whether the rule was created in response to this person's business, and whether they attempted to grandfather the rule. I mean, if I decided to operate as an FFL and I voluntarily agreed to live under an HOA's covenants that forbid it, I don't have a leg to stand on, but if they created the rule in an effort to put me out of business, I'd be calling my lawyer.

So, rather than speculating on all this, I'm trying to find something that approximates "facts" (and talk show jibber-jabber doesn't qualify :lol: )
I don't fear guns; I fear voters and politicians that fear guns.

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Re: FFL denied right to sell from home by HOA

#5

Post by seamusTX »

My HOA states that you may operate a business so long as it's not "dangerous", but I would hardly describe selling firearms as dangerous,...
That's a whole 'nother kettle of fish. ;-)

I've seen people go into conniptions over a gun store opening "near" a school (which in their minds seems to mean in the same county). I guess they think that lunatics buy machine guns there, walk out the door, and start shooting.

I don't know of any law or regulation that would classify an FFL as any more dangerous than a dry cleaner or paint store.

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Re: FFL denied right to sell from home by HOA

#6

Post by seamusTX »

P.S.: As far as lawsuits are concerned, IANAL, but as I understand it, the HOA has to sue the homeowner to force him to do anything that he won't do voluntarily. The burden of proof would be on the HOA to prove that the homeowner was violating the covenants.

- Jim
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Re: FFL denied right to sell from home by HOA

#7

Post by OldCannon »

Found an article, finally. Not as much details as I was hoping for:
http://weareaustin.com/fulltext/?nxd_id=65835" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

According to the report, the HOA did amend the rules in response to them finding out he was selling firearms. Hopefully the TSRA or NRA is helping him out.
I don't fear guns; I fear voters and politicians that fear guns.

I can help you buy or sell a home. Visit https://jdmorton.exprealty.com or https://pflugerville.realty
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Re: FFL denied right to sell from home by HOA

#8

Post by seamusTX »

Clements said there would be no customers walking in or out of his house and no business signs posted outside. He would make deals selling the weapons online, but Clements said he may store some guns at his house.
Now prohibiting that is thoroughly ridiculous. It's no different from selling Beanie Babies on eBay.

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Re: FFL denied right to sell from home by HOA

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Post by OldCannon »

If he's an FFL, I'm not sure how he could keep customers from walking in/out for a firearms transfer, since they have to fill out the form and have a background check to purchase a firearm.
I don't fear guns; I fear voters and politicians that fear guns.

I can help you buy or sell a home. Visit https://jdmorton.exprealty.com or https://pflugerville.realty
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Re: FFL denied right to sell from home by HOA

#10

Post by OldCannon »

Through some crafty detective work (ok, I ran a couple of Google searches and mapped some locations), I found Andrew's email address and wrote to him. He welcomes any support he can get and it appears that he's reaching out to the TSRA and NRA already (he mentioned Charles' name, so I'm just kinda assuming he's talked to the Esteemed Mr. Cotton). He's on travel right now but will be back on Sunday, so perhaps he can clarify some information then (assuming his lawyers will let him speak of the topic)
I don't fear guns; I fear voters and politicians that fear guns.

I can help you buy or sell a home. Visit https://jdmorton.exprealty.com or https://pflugerville.realty
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Re: FFL denied right to sell from home by HOA

#11

Post by seamusTX »

lkd wrote:If he's an FFL, I'm not sure how he could keep customers from walking in/out for a firearms transfer, since they have to fill out the form and have a background check to purchase a firearm.
FFLs are supposed to have a defined business premises and hours. However, I know some that don't have a sign, don't advertise, and basically invite customers individually. They do most of their business at gun shows.

Having an FFL allows them to ship and receive firearms with no intermediary at their end.

The business model that this guy is talking about seems to be pure internet sales with delivery from him to an FFL near the buyer.

I've seen a few sellers on AuctionArms that say something like, "We ship to transfer FFLs only. Don't even bother to ask."

It seems reasonable, if that's how the guy wants to do business.

- Jim
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Re: FFL denied right to sell from home by HOA

#12

Post by OldCannon »

seamusTX wrote: FFLs are supposed to have a defined business premises and hours. However, I know some that don't have a sign, don't advertise, and basically invite customers individually. They do most of their business at gun shows.
Yup, that makes perfect sense. That's what I would do if I was starting out as well.
I don't fear guns; I fear voters and politicians that fear guns.

I can help you buy or sell a home. Visit https://jdmorton.exprealty.com or https://pflugerville.realty
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Re: FFL denied right to sell from home by HOA

#13

Post by Tamie »

seamusTX wrote:FFLs are supposed to have a defined business premises and hours.
I don't think ATF allows "by appointment only" anymore. If he doesn't have business hours, he risks having his license revoked.
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Re: FFL denied right to sell from home by HOA

#14

Post by OldCannon »

Tamie wrote:
seamusTX wrote:FFLs are supposed to have a defined business premises and hours.
I don't think ATF allows "by appointment only" anymore. If he doesn't have business hours, he risks having his license revoked.
My understanding (and I'm SURE Jim will correct me if I'm wrong :biggrinjester: ) is that while you must maintain hours, you have no obligation to be open like a store is. The purpose for maintaining hours, to my understanding, is so that the ATF can schedule inspections during your business hours. I believe it's also done because the ATF wants to know that you are operating a legitimate business, rather than just getting an FFL so you can buy guns cheaply for yourself.
I don't fear guns; I fear voters and politicians that fear guns.

I can help you buy or sell a home. Visit https://jdmorton.exprealty.com or https://pflugerville.realty
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Re: FFL denied right to sell from home by HOA

#15

Post by Tamie »

He either has hours he's open for business or he doesn't. I don't have much sympathy if he's trying to have it both ways.
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