It's illegal to use the military against citizens

[mojo84]

You are missing the big picture.

Actually, I would like for Seal Team 6 be called in to do the extraction since they are the highly trained professionals in that type of operation. Am I going to get my wish?

Using my mom, wife or daughter to help justify this kind of thing is pretty elementary when many of the people requesting these equipment "gifts" are really wanting them for the same reason as this guy. http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/ ... ded-again/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Your lack of response to the question, deflection and attempt to belittle is likely more telling then anything your otherwise willing to post.

I had hoped for an honest response so we could discusses.
I'll leave this thread to you now.

You act as if you've answered the questions I asked of you. I told you, if my family was in that situation who I would want handling the extraction. I would add I would want them use whatever equipment they have available. Does that mean it will happen or that it is right?

http://freedomoutpost.com/2013/08/retir ... stic-army/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[CoffeeNut]

I'm curious as to why these are being given to LE instead of the National Guard. Has the National Guard been brought up to speed so much that they can now also pass on free stuff?

[mojo84]

I really like the colonel's comment at the end, "There is free cheese on the mousetrap".

[mayor]

If only it was a "safe vehicle" that was being discussed. You are not seeing the big picture.

Just curious, how many police vehicles have been blown up by running over an IED or encountered an rpg or taken .50 cal fire?

Actually that IS what this thread was discussing before a few blew it out of proportion.

So, miliarized the police. This is just what every police department needs. http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/09 ... g-threats/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I find it concerning the feds gave them this.

Let me ask you a question... If your mother, daughter or wife was shot and trapped by an active shooter.. would you request the police not use the most secure vehicle they had available to rescue her because of your personal belief that no law enforcement agency "needs" or should have such a vehicle?

Department has.. NO bullet resistant vehicle department is offered an excess military vehicle that is bullet resistant... Your stated position is they should turn down that offered vehicle ?

trapped where? in an open field? are the cops going to ram the thing through the wall and drive around inside the building until the bad guys are captured or dead? I would hope the the cops that have come to rescue will have more finesse than is required to use an armored personnel carrier.

[Syntyr]

trapped where? in an open field? are the cops going to ram the thing through the wall and drive around inside the building until the bad guys are captured or dead? I would hope the the cops that have come to rescue will have more finesse than is required to use an armored personnel carrier.

Mayor, well put. This is the question here. What are these things used for. No good for the supposed task of serving high risk warrants... Don't work for hostage rescue... Freeway patrol nope no good. This things are used for transporting soldiers across a battle field that is dangerous with incoming fire or ieds... The closest thing in a civilian situation whe these things would be of use is in a suppression of riots or maybe protection of a border by the national guard.

A far as the average police department this is a solution in search of a problem!

[mojo84]

They are great for dealing with uncooperative rebellious citizens.

I watched several promotional videos for this type of equipment. None of which were using them in an urban environment.

There are plenty of less expensive armored vehicles out there that aren't designed for war. Never seen Brinks or one of the other armored car companies using vehicles such as these.

[EEllis]

trapped where? in an open field? are the cops going to ram the thing through the wall and drive around inside the building until the bad guys are captured or dead? I would hope the the cops that have come to rescue will have more finesse than is required to use an armored personnel carrier.

In the Austin Clock Tower Shooting, years ago I know, officers were pinned down for quite awhile and ended up using an armored car that they "borrowed" to remove wounded from the area. That was not lack of finesse but a practical nessesity.


Now this looks a lot less military and is much easier to justify.



But this was free and can do every job they need,

Is it more than they need, yes it is. So?

[mojo84]

trapped where? in an open field? are the cops going to ram the thing through the wall and drive around inside the building until the bad guys are captured or dead? I would hope the the cops that have come to rescue will have more finesse than is required to use an armored personnel carrier.

In the Austin Clock Tower Shooting, years ago I know, officers were pinned down for quite awhile and ended up using an armored car that they "borrowed" to remove wounded from the area. That was not lack of finesse but a practical nessesity.

[ Image ]
Now this looks a lot less military and is much easier to justify.

[ Image ]




But this was free and can do every job they need,

Is it more than they need, yes it is. So?

How in the world can you guys keep saying it was free?

[VoiceofReason]

I wonder who she thinks paid for it.

“The vehicle was obtained at no cost to tax payers [sic].”

I guess you ignored my first comment in my second post. I am all for them/you having the proper weapons and do not want them/you outgunned. I also believe they should have armored vehicles. Just not military war fighting weapons and equipment. Law enforcement is not at war with American citizens.

"What we have here is failure to communicate."- Cool Hand Luke

I believe we are all in agreement for the most part, just having a little problem with understanding.

I think it would be great if the PD could sell this truck and use the money to put bullet resistant glass in all patrol vehicles, along with steel panels in the doors and whatever else would be needed to protect the occupants to at least a 30.06.

That would be much more likely to save an officers life than this monster sitting in the lot collecting dust.

Use whatever money that is left to purchase and issue “Bulletproof” Ballistic-Rated Clipboards and other safety equipment.

Oh well, I am just a tax payer. My function is to give them my money, their job is to waste it.

[EEllis]

How in the world can you guys keep saying it was free?

Because it doesn't cost the dept anything. Sure the military spent a ton of money , the war was bad, blah blah blah. Right now tho they are sitting around not being used because we got out of iraq. So we have a police dept that can buy a bearcat that is designed for police at about $250,000 or can apply for a surplus MRAP that they get at no cost to them. The MRAP is, I'm sure, a bit much, but while it may have a ton of features the cops don't need and wouldn't pay for it still covers the criteria they do need.

And by the way why would anyone care except they look scary? They are not tanks. There are no machine guns or cannons on these vehicles. What will they do with them that you are so worried about? They are defensive vehicles and were never meant to be defensive weapons. The major "military" aspect of their design is the mine resistance and while unnecessary who is going to get worked up over that? How are the cops going to oppress us with a vehicle that resist mines? No real defensive capabilities but it's hard to blow up, those totalitarians!!!

[EEllis]

I wonder who she thinks paid for it.

“The vehicle was obtained at no cost to tax payers [sic].”

I guess you ignored my first comment in my second post. I am all for them/you having the proper weapons and do not want them/you outgunned. I also believe they should have armored vehicles. Just not military war fighting weapons and equipment. Law enforcement is not at war with American citizens.

"What we have here is failure to communicate."- Cool Hand Luke

I believe we are all in agreement for the most part, just having a little problem with understanding.

I think it would be great if the PD could sell this truck and use the money to put bullet resistant glass in all patrol vehicles, along with steel panels in the doors and whatever else would be needed to protect the occupants to at least a 30.06.

That would be much more likely to save an officers life than this monster sitting in the lot collecting dust.

Use whatever money that is left to purchase and issue “Bulletproof” Ballistic-Rated Clipboards and other safety equipment.

Oh well, I am just a tax payer. My function is to give them my money, their job is to waste it.

If you won't let police depts own them then what? Sell them to the fire Dept?

[mayor]

In the Austin Clock Tower Shooting, years ago I know, officers were pinned down for quite awhile and ended up using an armored car that they "borrowed" to remove wounded from the area. That was not lack of finesse but a practical nessesity.

good point, but not one that is used by the PD as justification.

And by the way why would anyone care except they look scary?

isn't that the same reason the gov. tries to ban "assault rifles"?

[EEllis]

Mayor, well put. This is the question here. What are these things used for. No good for the supposed task of serving high risk warrants... Don't work for hostage rescue... Freeway patrol nope no good. This things are used for transporting soldiers across a battle field that is dangerous with incoming fire or ieds... The closest thing in a civilian situation whe these things would be of use is in a suppression of riots or maybe protection of a border by the national guard.

A far as the average police department this is a solution in search of a problem!

That simply is not true. These would be good for serving warrants, evacuating civilians and injured under fire, dealing with armed barricaded suspects. Here is a story of a standoff in longview. http://www.news-journal.com/news/local/ ... 47eba.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Now that was a bearcat but it clearly shows that such vehicals can be put to good use.
In addition these vehicles are not and never have been battlefield vehicles. The were first developed and used for MP's as base security in Vietnam and later used in roles to provide extra security for troops. They are not tanks, they are not bradley's, they are not even strykers. They are glorified armored cars which they added much needed mine protection to.
Can they be overkill for the job needed? Sure, but when the cost of a less capable vehicle would cost hundreds of thousands more why not?

[E.Marquez]

What are these things used for. No good for the supposed task of serving high risk warrants... Don't work for hostage rescue... Freeway patrol nope no good.

That is exactly what they were used for in Iraq and Afghanistan..
I realize those that do not have that experience have no way to really know this.. Watching years of Media coverage is NOT a replacement for actual knowledge. and taking "Some guy on the Internets " word is hard..

But it's still the truth.

We used them in urban terrain EVERY DAY to patrol city streets. Arrest high value targets, Detain known persons of interest, Drove them up and down hiways to get to patrol areas.. allowed them to protect us from small arms fire, counted on them to roll up in pairs, form a "T" and that sweet ramp drops from the MRAP.. all you can see is that huge, safe hole your buddies are going to drag you into.

Any tool can be misused and called unneeded and evil.. The tool most of you carry daily is called evil and unneeded by many,,, Yet you refuse to accept that ignorant position because know different.

Perhaps apply that same concept to other tools that you know little about, yet scare you... and allow those that do and have need for them to go on using them to great effect.

[texanjoker]

You are missing the big picture.

Actually, I would like for Seal Team 6 be called in to do the extraction since they are the highly trained professionals in that type of operation. Am I going to get my wish?

Using my mom, wife or daughter to help justify this kind of thing is pretty elementary when many of the people requesting these equipment "gifts" are really wanting them for the same reason as this guy. http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/ ... ded-again/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Your lack of response to the question, deflection and attempt to belittle is likely more telling then anything your otherwise willing to post.

I had hoped for an honest response so we could discusses.
I'll leave this thread to you now.