Veterans Blocked From Owning Firearms

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EEllis
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Re: Veterans Blocked From Owning Firearms

#16

Post by EEllis » Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:22 pm

anygunanywhere wrote:I will go with Grassley on this. I will side with the veterans.
Huh?

I'm only responding because you quoted me but why does siding with the veterans require over dramatizing the situation? Why is stating things accurately a bad thing? You have gone past anything Grassley has said so how is that going with Him?

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Re: Veterans Blocked From Owning Firearms

#17

Post by mojo84 » Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:42 pm

rbwhatever1 wrote:
mojo84 wrote:rb, can you post a link to your quote? It would be good for all interested to see it in context.
That paragraph was at the bottom of anygunanywhere's original link and it was from the original DHS analysis on "right wing extremists". Full DHS assessment linked below...


http://michellemalkin.com/wp-content/up ... -04-07.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I didn't make the connection. I thought it may have been a different sources. Thanks
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Re: Veterans Blocked From Owning Firearms

#18

Post by mojo84 » Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:43 pm

Here an article about an amendment to a bill that was filed on this issue. There must be something to the issue.

http://archive.armytimes.com/article/20 ... lls-Senate" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think it should take more than just a pencil pushing paper shuffling bureaucrat checking a box to remove one's rights. Here's a quote from the article
The amendment sought allow the VA to only report to the FBI's National Instant Criminal Background Check System if a judge, magistrate or other judicial authority determines a veteran is a danger to himself or others.
Last edited by mojo84 on Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Veterans Blocked From Owning Firearms

#19

Post by rbwhatever1 » Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:52 pm

The VA needs to add some names from Washington to the list. The most profound fiduciary incompetent group of thugs on the planet should be ruled mentally defective, dangerous to citizens today and those born 100 years from now. Put them all on the NICS list and ban them from public office for incompetence under their own Federal rule 38 C.F.R. § 3.353.

Wouldn't that be funny...
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Re: Veterans Blocked From Owning Firearms

#20

Post by VoiceofReason » Sat Apr 18, 2015 3:08 pm

No Government bureaucracy should have the authority to make laws, or regulations with the power of law.

The BATF, DHS should have to bring a request for a law before congress and it would be handled as any bill would be.

This would be very effective in stopping the runaway transfer of power from the people to the government we are seeing.

The government is getting evermore afraid (to the point of paranoia) that people will regain some of the power over their own lives that the government has taken.
God Bless America, and please hurry.
When I was young I knew all the answers. When I got older I started to realize I just hadn’t quite understood the questions.-Me

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Re: Veterans Blocked From Owning Firearms

#21

Post by stevie_d_64 » Sat Apr 18, 2015 5:48 pm

What the idea is is to setup ANY person who served, is serving, and in the future choose to serve this country as being mentally compromised...

This will warrant special scrutiny for anything the veteran, or active duty or reserve service member chooses to do...

i.e.: drivers license, CHL, seeking to get signed up with the VA for whatever it is they think they do...hunting and fishing licenses, Class III (NFA) stuff especially...

Its all about putting a layer of monitoring on these people...Including me FYI...

Some may say this already occurs...The fact that Veterans are given special treatment(s), for certain activities, we would be naturally subservient and not question as much any additional flags put on our "information" the government (at all levels) collects on us...

I know, because I recently played wingman for my nephew who just got discharged honorably from the Marines...

Not only is it mandatory to get a mental health screening (2) for recent eligible Vets...But I found out that because I was there to give him encouragement, they made a notation on both of us showing up together...Somehow that is weird, or mentally questionable...

So, in conclusion, none of these things we are seeing in regards to Veterans does not surprise me...

As for the over diagnosed PTSD issue...There is no one qualified, in my opinion, to talk to a combat Veteran, than another combat Veteran, unless that counselor IS one...PERIOD!!!

I welcome any challenges to my opinion, and I will not take it wrong if some or all disagree with me...I do not mind expanding on some of these and other Veteran issues...
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Re: Veterans Blocked From Owning Firearms

#22

Post by anygunanywhere » Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:32 am

EEllis wrote:
anygunanywhere wrote:I will go with Grassley on this. I will side with the veterans.
Huh?

I'm only responding because you quoted me but why does siding with the veterans require over dramatizing the situation? Why is stating things accurately a bad thing? You have gone past anything Grassley has said so how is that going with Him?
You are the one who stated up front you doubted the veracity of the article. Why is that? Do you have proof that veterans are not being labeled as incompetent and placed on the NICS list unnecessarily? Do you have proof that Grassley is lying? It is a fact that there are immense problems with the VA administration and that veterans are not receiving the care promised them for their service to our country. It is a fact that the DHS has stated that veterans should be considered as domestic terrorists. It is a fact that the current administration has no respect for the veterans. All you have to do is look at both their actions and inactions on the veterans issue.

I posted the article because I believe it is spot on as an example of the lengths the VA is going to to mistreat veterans and violating their rights. Just because a veteran cannot handle his finances ad benefits is totally irrelevant to their 2A rights. Their 4A right to due process has been violated as well.

If you want to deny facts and argue that the article is untrue do so. I stated that I side with Grassley's comments an the veterans. What is it about my standing by them causes you confusion?

You really do not need to answer my questions; consider them rhetorical.
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Re: Veterans Blocked From Owning Firearms

#23

Post by EEllis » Sun Apr 19, 2015 11:14 am

The funny thing is that aside from the alarmist and inaccurate statements I do think it's wrong to classify people in this manner. They are taking a determination made for one thing, a persons ability to handle their finances, and applying it to a whole different thing. This is obviously not the best way to determine someones fitness for owning firearms. That we have this bull back and forth because I didn't let the exaggerations pass is more than a bit silly.


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Re: Veterans Blocked From Owning Firearms

#24

Post by ScooterSissy » Sun Apr 19, 2015 11:23 am

mojo84 wrote:...
I think it should take more than just a pencil pushing paper shuffling bureaucrat checking a box to remove one's rights. ...
That's my concern. I've seen too many government employees (at many different levels) that feel they should interpret, and apply, the rules as they see fit. There are those that will look for any means they can find to deny others the right to carry. "No guns" is their demand, "the rules" are just a way to get there.


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Re: Veterans Blocked From Owning Firearms

#25

Post by SkipB » Sun Apr 19, 2015 12:05 pm

There are two things that come to mind, #1-The VA doesn't just go around paying someone to handle your money. The person they choose is normally a spouse or another family member, mother, father ect. On the occasions they do this it involves mental stress and not being able to handle day to day issues. From the perspective of the VA it is normally related to PTSD. PTSD is a very real thing. I have had several fiends from the Vietnam war that came home with that and it gets worse as time goes by. One in per tickler would hide in a closet with his guns threatening to kill himself or anyone how tried to open the door. When his wife called I had to drop everything and head to east Texas. I did that many times. #2- The problem with PTSD today is it is to easy to claim. Many vets getting out will claim PTSD to draw a little check. I personally think we should take care of our veterans. I personally think anyone with mental issues should not be walking around with a gun in their pocket. Vet or not. I am retired Army Infantry and served two tours in the Vietnam war. The VA is not the only one who is ask to report people who may be mentally unstable. Some private doctors ask questions like, Do you sleep well at night, Do you have guns in your home, Do you feel safe in your home, ect. Its not just the VA.
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Re: Veterans Blocked From Owning Firearms

#26

Post by Charles L. Cotton » Sun Apr 19, 2015 4:46 pm

Stop the personal attacks. One post has been deleted and the thread is going to be locked if it continues.

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Re: Veterans Blocked From Owning Firearms

#27

Post by baldeagle » Sun Apr 19, 2015 4:59 pm

EEllis wrote:I have more than a little doubt as to the veracity of this story but even in the information given we are not talking about a little bookkeeping help. They are referring to vets that have someone other than themselves legally responsible for their government benefits. This is not using some VA bookkeeping assistance but someone else having control over their finances. This wouldn't be something one did because they were bad with budgets. You would have to have much bigger issues.
This is obviously an assumption on your part and not based on the facts. Not only that, but you have misrepresented the facts (in the part that I highlighted.)

When a Veteran Will Be Appointed a Fiduciary for Benefits Purposes
A veteran can be deemed incompetent due to mental disability, advanced age, or even physical infirmity. A finding of incompetence must be supported by medical evidence or a court ruling. In some cases, a court may have ruled you incompetent, and then the VA will also find you incompetent to manage your benefits.
Other times the VA will rely on the findings made by the VA doctor who conducted the Compensation and Pension Exam when deciding that a veteran is incompetent. The Compensation and Pension exam is the exam that is ordered to evaluate your disability after you have applied for disability compensation. The report from this exam will contain a medical opinion about whether or not your disability is service-connected, but may also include information about your mental capacity to handle money.
The VA also relies on medical findings from your routine medical visits to the VA (or a private physician) when deciding if you can handle your own VA benefits or not.
Being found incompetent by the VA to manage your VA benefits will not affect your right to handle other finances or assets you may have.
Note that the VA can determine that you are not physically able to handle your benefit checks. Clearly that eliminates any concerns about mental instability. Additionally, a court determination of incompetence is not even required. Not only that, but the VA's own doctors can determine you're incompetent, a clear conflict of interest.

Furthermore, this is not even a determination that you can't handle your own finances. It only reaches to whether or not the VA thinks you can handle your benefits checks.

If this is not a violation of a veterans' rights, what is? As Senator Grassley points out, it doesn't even fit within the legal definition of what justifies a NICS ban.
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Re: Veterans Blocked From Owning Firearms

#28

Post by EEllis » Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:53 pm

baldeagle wrote: This is obviously an assumption on your part and not based on the facts. Not only that, but you have misrepresented the facts (in the part that I highlighted.)
I disagree. True I could of been more specific because of course the VA can only effect money they source but I can see how it could seem that I was stating that a determination by the VA had some greater financial effect. That wasn't what I intended. To me it was obvious the VA, or anyone, would have to go thru the courts to effect other monies. So? Statements made still misrepresents that this is not about needing bookkeeping help.

If this is not a violation of a veterans' rights, what is? As Senator Grassley points out, it doesn't even fit within the legal definition of what justifies a NICS ban.
I haven't an issue with the statement that it could be a violation of their rights. I stated that people were misrepresenting the true nature of the situation.

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Re: Veterans Blocked From Owning Firearms

#29

Post by VMI77 » Mon Apr 20, 2015 9:35 am

mojo84 wrote:Saw this the other day and have been thinking about it.

I think they are creating a catch 22 as far as vets suffering from and needing assistance with PTSD. I think this kind of adverse treatmemt will penalize many that seek help and will discourage future vets from getting the help they need.

Many of the mental illnesses do warrant people losing their gun rights. It comes down to the specific person's illness and to the degree of their illness. Unfortunately, bureaucrats male broad sweeping decisions that effect many unnecessarily.
About as Catch-22 in the true use of the term as you can get. A gun owner is crazy if he seeks on the record help or treatment in this country today and wants to continue owning guns.

This is dangerous stuff and it is reminiscent of the Soviet era "progressive" tactics of marginalizing and imprisoning political opposition as being "crazy."
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Re: Veterans Blocked From Owning Firearms

#30

Post by mojo84 » Tue Apr 21, 2015 4:45 pm

No, there's nothing to it. No veracity at all. Only 99.3% of "mentally defective" added to the list are vets. :roll:

http://insider.foxnews.com/2015/04/21/p ... ent-rights" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

from Grassley's letter.
According to the Congressional Research Service, as of June 1, 2012, 99.3% of all names reported to the NICS list’s "mental defective” category were provided by the Veterans Administration (VA) even though reporting requirements apply to all federal agencies.
Stunning how we allow those that protect our rights to be treated. Whoever said, In Government We Trust?
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