This is why I will not own any Apple products!

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Re: This is why I will not own any Apple products!

#16

Post by TomsTXCHL » Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:02 am

The Annoyed Man wrote:If it is possible for Apple to cooperate with that investigation without revealing their encryption methods to gov't, then maybe they should cooperate.
It sounds like the FBI has demanded that Apple create a new version of iOS to load to the iPhone in question, one which would give unfettered access to the encrypted data thereon. I believe Tim Cook that they don't have such a thing, and support his disinclination to try to build it just for this one incident. Heck there probably isn't anything of value on the bloody thing anyway--the BGs were careful to cover their tracks it seems.

It's all much ado about little AFAIC by comparison perhaps to the OBL fiasco. I mean, I never understood why the Obama administration was so very quick to tell the world they'd killed him and grabbed all his computers and whatnot. It seemed to me that they should have kept it quiet for absolutely as long as they possibly could while they analyzed all the data, and possibly surprised some people, vs. "hey all you creeps better run for the hills, we have the Big Guy's secret data on you".

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Re: This is why I will not own any Apple products!

#17

Post by casp625 » Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:05 am

Or maybe the employer should have some kind of mobile device management system in place... where credentials are managed by the employer and they could have easily just reset the person's login :tiphat:

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Re: This is why I will not own any Apple products!

#18

Post by Wes » Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:10 am

This is exactly why you SHOULD want to own an apple product. Some seem to think they are WILLING to break in to this phone but they are NOT.

The fact they they are fighting back against a judges order says a lot IMO. They should not do this and I am happy to support them even more because they aren't doing it.
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Re: This is why I will not own any Apple products!

#19

Post by The Annoyed Man » Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:16 am

WildBill wrote:I haven't read each link thoroughly, but it sounds like the govt wants Apple to create a new operating system with a "back door" rather than breaking into an already encrypted phone.
This is quite different than getting data that is already on a phone. I agree with a couple of posters that every iPhone can already be hacked.
That is exactly the issue. As far as I'm concerned gov't can take a hike. I'm not willingly surrendering my privacy so that an inefficient leviathan can do its job more easily.
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Re: This is why I will not own any Apple products!

#20

Post by anygunanywhere » Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:17 am

JALLEN wrote:
anygunanywhere wrote:The government can already get into the phone.

Think about it for a second.

If the government was to publish "evidence" from the phone that proves terrorist intent without Apple's involvement it would prove publicly what most of us already know, which is they already have a back door. How many people are ignorant of the quantity of information and the many publicized examples of the government's gleaning of information? Does anyone really think that the government can't break into anything? Ask German chancellor Merkle.

The government is playing innocent. Ground yourself in reality.
OTOH, we are bombarded daily with evidence of incompetent bungling, sloth, laziness, buffoonery, and various other reasons to conclude that the bureaucrats wear loafers because they can't tie their own shoes.

Incompetence is always a plausible explanation for government activities and misadventures.

The saving grace is that if they want to badly enough, they command virtually limitless resources to throw at a problem, no matter what it costs or how long it may take. When you are spending someone else's money, there is no point in skimping.
Is there really a difference between a government that is made up of a bunch of bumbling idiots trying to accomplish a goal of tyranny over the citizenry or a government skilled at accomplishing the same goal?

Does anyone really trust our current government made up of either idiot or skilled tyrants?
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Re: This is why I will not own any Apple products!

#21

Post by Solaris » Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:41 am

Bitter Clinger wrote:Apple will fight a federal magistrate's order to help the Obama administration break into an encrypted iPhone belonging to one of the shooters in last December's deadly San Bernardino terror attack

That is exactly why I do own them!

Hurray Apple!


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Re: This is why I will not own any Apple products!

#22

Post by rentz » Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:21 am

The Annoyed Man wrote:Bitter, I have to respectfully disagree.....

I'm on my 3rd iPhone. I appreciate the privacy from the overreaching grasp of an out of control federal gov't which, particularly under the direction of a racist fascist like Obama, thinks it has no limits to its power over our lives. If that means that Apple has exclusive use of my data so that they can try to sell me stuff, well at least I'm being marketed to by a company which cares more about my 4th Amendment rights than does the government which is charged with protecting those rights.

If it is possible for Apple to cooperate with that investigation without revealing their encryption methods to gov't, then maybe they should cooperate. But if cooperation means revealing their encryption methods, thereby unlocking all iPhones to gov't intrusion at will, then the Obama administration can go fly a kite........EVEN if that means that some connection to other terrorists goes undiscovered.

"You'll be safer" as an excuse for giving NSA unprecedented access in all of history to the private data of loyal American citizens has turned out NOT to have prevented jihadist attacks in this country. The creation of the Department of Homeland Security and passage of the "Patriot" Act has made us LESS secure in our persons and affairs, while adding a HUGE bureaucracy with vast powers onto the backs of already overburdened taxpayers - a bureaucracy, which once created, will NEVER disappear from that burden. The last time I boarded a plane, I had to submit to having my privates jostled by a woman in uniform with an attitude.

If Apple can and will protect this lowly consumer's privacy from the intrusions of such a gov't, I applaud and thank them. Just look at what the pursuit of terrorism has done to both our liberties and our presumption of innocence even without criminal charges. We now live in an ages where we have to PROVE to gov't that our continued personal liberty is merited every single day by submitting to daily ongoing invasions of our privacy. Is THAT what generations of Americans fought and died for?

Those terrorists are dead. Good. Some of their associations have already been discovered. Good. I seriously doubt that giving THIS gov't access to the data of ALL Apple users will catch a single terrorist....... But it WILL diminish the Constitution that much more. TRUE Liberty is not without risk. I would rather assume that risk than surrender my Liberty. If others are more concerned about their risk than their liberty, then let them take steps individually to mitigate their risks (by carrying a gun, for instance). But the argument that ALL must surrender their liberty so that SOME can feel safe is bovine waste product, and it has done more to damage liberty in this country than almost any other influence.


:clapping:

well said, thats one thing that keeps me with apple. While i don't doubt they are capturing info for their own purposes they atleast appear to put up a fight with the govt when asked to give them txt messages or unlock phones. The same cannot be said for google.

Keep in mind i'm not an apple zealot i dont 100% trust them with my information but i trust them more than google.

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Re: This is why I will not own any Apple products!

#23

Post by Javier730 » Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:40 am

The Annoyed Man wrote:Bitter, I have to respectfully disagree.....

I'm on my 3rd iPhone. I appreciate the privacy from the overreaching grasp of an out of control federal gov't which, particularly under the direction of a racist fascist like Obama, thinks it has no limits to its power over our lives. If that means that Apple has exclusive use of my data so that they can try to sell me stuff, well at least I'm being marketed to by a company which cares more about my 4th Amendment rights than does the government which is charged with protecting those rights.

If it is possible for Apple to cooperate with that investigation without revealing their encryption methods to gov't, then maybe they should cooperate. But if cooperation means revealing their encryption methods, thereby unlocking all iPhones to gov't intrusion at will, then the Obama administration can go fly a kite........EVEN if that means that some connection to other terrorists goes undiscovered.

"You'll be safer" as an excuse for giving NSA unprecedented access in all of history to the private data of loyal American citizens has turned out NOT to have prevented jihadist attacks in this country. The creation of the Department of Homeland Security and passage of the "Patriot" Act has made us LESS secure in our persons and affairs, while adding a HUGE bureaucracy with vast powers onto the backs of already overburdened taxpayers - a bureaucracy, which once created, will NEVER disappear from that burden. The last time I boarded a plane, I had to submit to having my privates jostled by a woman in uniform with an attitude.

If Apple can and will protect this lowly consumer's privacy from the intrusions of such a gov't, I applaud and thank them. Just look at what the pursuit of terrorism has done to both our liberties and our presumption of innocence even without criminal charges. We now live in an ages where we have to PROVE to gov't that our continued personal liberty is merited every single day by submitting to daily ongoing invasions of our privacy. Is THAT what generations of Americans fought and died for?

Those terrorists are dead. Good. Some of their associations have already been discovered. Good. I seriously doubt that giving THIS gov't access to the data of ALL Apple users will catch a single terrorist....... But it WILL diminish the Constitution that much more. TRUE Liberty is not without risk. I would rather assume that risk than surrender my Liberty. If others are more concerned about their risk than their liberty, then let them take steps individually to mitigate their risks (by carrying a gun, for instance). But the argument that ALL must surrender their liberty so that SOME can feel safe is bovine waste product, and it has done more to damage liberty in this country than almost any other influence.
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Re: This is why I will not own any Apple products!

#24

Post by Chloe88 » Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:54 am

i have come to the conclusion that apple do not know how to make a battery that is all.

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Re: This is why I will not own any Apple products!

#25

Post by AJSully421 » Wed Feb 17, 2016 12:58 pm

Umm... this is EXACTLY why I will not own anything but Apple products. Not only will they not allow the government to search your stuff without a warrant, they will not allow the government to search your stuff WITH a warrant and a judge's order.

There are those who believe that "We must give up some liberty for security" . I, however, do not.

What do you think that is on that phone that will help fight terrorism? Any call, text, email, tweet, facebook post, Etc that was sent or received by that phone has already been captured by the NSA. The only possible thing that could be on there is a contacts list with phone numbers or email addresses of known ISIS folks... but the case is still there that anything sent or received has already been captured by the NSA, so even that won't really help unless they had such a contact, but never actually sent anything to it. And what are the chances of that?
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Re: This is why I will not own any Apple products!

#26

Post by Bitter Clinger » Wed Feb 17, 2016 1:02 pm

The Annoyed Man wrote:Bitter, I have to respectfully disagree.....

I'm on my 3rd iPhone. I appreciate the privacy from the overreaching grasp of an out of control federal gov't which, particularly under the direction of a racist fascist like Obama, thinks it has no limits to its power over our lives. If that means that Apple has exclusive use of my data so that they can try to sell me stuff, well at least I'm being marketed to by a company which cares more about my 4th Amendment rights than does the government which is charged with protecting those rights.

If it is possible for Apple to cooperate with that investigation without revealing their encryption methods to gov't, then maybe they should cooperate. But if cooperation means revealing their encryption methods, thereby unlocking all iPhones to gov't intrusion at will, then the Obama administration can go fly a kite........EVEN if that means that some connection to other terrorists goes undiscovered.

"You'll be safer" as an excuse for giving NSA unprecedented access in all of history to the private data of loyal American citizens has turned out NOT to have prevented jihadist attacks in this country. The creation of the Department of Homeland Security and passage of the "Patriot" Act has made us LESS secure in our persons and affairs, while adding a HUGE bureaucracy with vast powers onto the backs of already overburdened taxpayers - a bureaucracy, which once created, will NEVER disappear from that burden. The last time I boarded a plane, I had to submit to having my privates jostled by a woman in uniform with an attitude.

If Apple can and will protect this lowly consumer's privacy from the intrusions of such a gov't, I applaud and thank them. Just look at what the pursuit of terrorism has done to both our liberties and our presumption of innocence even without criminal charges. We now live in an ages where we have to PROVE to gov't that our continued personal liberty is merited every single day by submitting to daily ongoing invasions of our privacy. Is THAT what generations of Americans fought and died for?

Those terrorists are dead. Good. Some of their associations have already been discovered. Good. I seriously doubt that giving THIS gov't access to the data of ALL Apple users will catch a single terrorist....... But it WILL diminish the Constitution that much more. TRUE Liberty is not without risk. I would rather assume that risk than surrender my Liberty. If others are more concerned about their risk than their liberty, then let them take steps individually to mitigate their risks (by carrying a gun, for instance). But the argument that ALL must surrender their liberty so that SOME can feel safe is bovine waste product, and it has done more to damage liberty in this country than almost any other influence.
While I heartly agree with the majority of your points, I think that your argument is as well formed as it is misplaced. WHY can't Apple just simply open that one phone and provide the needed assistance to that investigation? You know that they can - they simply choose not to. Apple doesn't give a dang about our rights, they are about as far left wing a company in philosophy as exists. They are doing this for commercial gain, likely due to the well deserved perception that their products are in fact NOT secure.

And while I am all for privacy and probably quite libertarian in that regard (shoot, I am still a Blackberry user), let's not get all crazy here. I have been finger printed, subject to multiple FBI background checks, regular lie detector screenings (try keeping a straight face when some kid just out of college asks if you have ever lied to your wife or a co-worker!) all for work, and so far, I am still here unscathed, posting my opinions.

So, we can agree to disagree on the integrity of Apple, but as for the rest, you are the closest thing to mom and apple pie for me! :coolgleamA:
Last edited by Bitter Clinger on Wed Feb 17, 2016 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: This is why I will not own any Apple products!

#27

Post by Bitter Clinger » Wed Feb 17, 2016 1:08 pm

AJSully421 wrote:Umm... this is EXACTLY why I will not own anything but Apple products. Not only will they not allow the government to search your stuff without a warrant, they will not allow the government to search your stuff WITH a warrant and a judge's order.

There are those who believe that "We must give up some liberty for security" . I, however, do not.

What do you think that is on that phone that will help fight terrorism? Any call, text, email, tweet, facebook post, Etc that was sent or received by that phone has already been captured by the NSA. The only possible thing that could be on there is a contacts list with phone numbers or email addresses of known ISIS folks... but the case is still there that anything sent or received has already been captured by the NSA, so even that won't really help unless they had such a contact, but never actually sent anything to it. And what are the chances of that?
NSA only captures meta-data. Not content. Am 100% with you as regards NOT ever trading liberty for security. Just sayin the way I was trained, if the Govt wants that terrorist's phone information, ALL OF IT, then I would not rest until I provided it. Anything to help catch, convict, and if possible kill another terrorist - that is where I make my stand.
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Re: This is why I will not own any Apple products!

#28

Post by RicoTX » Wed Feb 17, 2016 1:20 pm

I don't normally like Apple or their products, but I support them in this instance. If they ever needed into my phone...they just need my finger. Do iPhones come with the secure wipe after 10 attempts by default? I know my android phone has the option...but you have to turn it on. It seems a moderate risk to try 10000 numbers. Most people use a 4 digit code that means something to them... So they should have a decent starting point.
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Re: This is why I will not own any Apple products!

#29

Post by mayor » Wed Feb 17, 2016 1:22 pm

Bitter Clinger wrote: NSA only captures meta-data. Not content. ...
which is even more intrusive than capturing content:

http://www.businessinsider.com/metadata ... ent-2013-8


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Re: This is why I will not own any Apple products!

#30

Post by rentz » Wed Feb 17, 2016 1:22 pm

RicoTX wrote:I don't normally like Apple or their products, but I support them in this instance. If they ever needed into my phone...they just need my finger. Do iPhones come with the secure wipe after 10 attempts by default? I know my android phone has the option...but you have to turn it on. It seems a moderate risk to try 10000 numbers. Most people use a 4 digit code that means something to them... So they should have a decent starting point.
its on by default now yes...but as you said if you use the fingerprint sensor well then they've got 10 attempts total right? one would have to match.

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