Are Pepper Guns Legal in TX?

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ckr13
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Re: Are Pepper Guns Legal in TX?

#16

Post by ckr13 » Thu Jun 09, 2016 9:27 pm

Since we are on the topic of vague "illegal" weapons: What is a bowie knife? I also recently bought a 9.25 total length knife (the Ka-bar 1258). I read the TX penal code and thought I was in the clear, but a friend pointed out the ambiguousness of a "bowie knife." :cryin


bakertaylor28
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Re: Are Pepper Guns Legal in TX?

#17

Post by bakertaylor28 » Fri Sep 07, 2018 2:35 pm

Pepper Ball guns are most probably legal. The relevant statute defining an unlawful chemical dispensing device says the following:

"(14) "Chemical dispensing device" means a device, other than a small chemical dispenser sold commercially for personal protection, that is designed, made, or adapted for the purpose of dispensing a substance capable of causing an adverse psychological or physiological effect on a human being. "

This means that a device that constitutes as "small chemical dispenser sold commercially for personal protection" is lawful to possess in a public place. The problem for the government is that the statute doesn't define the words "small", or "personal" - terms that have no legal dictionary, so absent a specific definition imposed by the legislature for the purposes of the statute, the terms get their ordinary dictionary definitions as defined in the well-respected dictionaries. Notably, our statute doesn't say what constitutes a "dispensing device"- therefore, there is also the legal argument that we can limit the term "dispensing device" to mean the pepper ball ONLY and not the gun or other launching device needed to deploy it. (which is how the judiciary is most likely to interpret things up front.)

Therefore, we can articluate that a pepper ball is "small" - it contains less chemical agent than the typical 2 Oz. canister carried by the majority of well trained persons for "personal defense". It can also be articulated that something the size of a pistol is intended for "personal defense or defense of the person of another."- the same as with traditional small pepper spray devices. Therefore, it can be articulated that a pepper ball gun in the shape of a pistol is a "small" device which is "Commecrially Sold" and is intended for "personal protection" - therefore it would be in full compliance with the legal definition of an allowed device.

Even if that argument were to fail, it still would stand that the really BIG problem for the government is that the statute doesn't state what "small" is to be in comparison to- i.e. what specifically would be "large" and therefore illegal per the size modifier. (put another way, "EXACTLY How BIG is "small"?- This is a question that has to have an EXACT and precise answer for a statute to overcome the doctrine for unconstitutional vagueness in this particular setting.) Therefore, it follows that the statute is unconstitutionally vague, because an ordinary person cannot read the statute and be able to sort a potential list of objects into those which are legal and those which are not without some widely varying and highly subjective opinions coming into play. (Which is something that the 5th circuit court of appeals has a very high disdain for.) The United States Constitution has a specific provision that makes overly vauge statutes unconstitutional at the federal level. See Skilling v. United States (2010)

Therefore, an arrest over a pepper ball gun would likely trigger civil rights litigation under 28 U.S.C. 1983 due to the constitutional implications involved, as well as a most likely successful criminal appeal at worst case. What's more is that the state attorney general can be sued on constitutional grounds pre-emptively if one can show that one intends to do something they perceive to be lawful, and can articulate grounds to believe that the state would target them for an unconstitutional criminal action.


bakertaylor28
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Re: Are Pepper Guns Legal in TX?

#18

Post by bakertaylor28 » Fri Sep 07, 2018 2:55 pm

ckr13 wrote:
Thu Jun 09, 2016 9:27 pm
Since we are on the topic of vague "illegal" weapons: What is a bowie knife? I also recently bought a 9.25 total length knife (the Ka-bar 1258). I read the TX penal code and thought I was in the clear, but a friend pointed out the ambiguousness of a "bowie knife." :cryin
Actually, a "Bowie Knife" has a typical accepted definition- "a long knife with a blade double-edged at the point." Where the statute doesn't give a specific definition, terms get their ordinary definition in the dictionary. This is a common law rule imposed by the U.S. Supreme Court in criminal law.

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Jusme
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Re: Are Pepper Guns Legal in TX?

#19

Post by Jusme » Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:58 pm

bakertaylor28 wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 2:55 pm
ckr13 wrote:
Thu Jun 09, 2016 9:27 pm
Since we are on the topic of vague "illegal" weapons: What is a bowie knife? I also recently bought a 9.25 total length knife (the Ka-bar 1258). I read the TX penal code and thought I was in the clear, but a friend pointed out the ambiguousness of a "bowie knife." :cryin
Actually, a "Bowie Knife" has a typical accepted definition- "a long knife with a blade double-edged at the point." Where the statute doesn't give a specific definition, terms get their ordinary definition in the dictionary. This is a common law rule imposed by the U.S. Supreme Court in criminal law.
Bowie knives, etc, are now legal. There are no more restrictions, on knives, except in certain places, schools, etc.
Take away the Second first, and the First is gone in a second :rules: :patriot:

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PriestTheRunner
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Re: Are Pepper Guns Legal in TX?

#20

Post by PriestTheRunner » Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:11 pm

I would be willing to be that 90% of this forum who regularly carry firearms also carry some sort of spray.

You need to have some level between "make the drunk stop harassing that lady" and "put a bullet in him". You are right, threating with a gun may lead to the second option, which is why I would never even present a firearm into the equation. Just because you have a firearm doesn't mean you have to use it. Why not carry both, it isn't like it is either/or.

Although, I wish the legislature would remove ALL restrictions on all items. It isn't prohibition anymore, who gives a crap about the size of an OC can that my wife wants to carry. Thats my 0.02.

:txflag:

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mcscanner
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Re: Are Pepper Guns Legal in TX?

#21

Post by mcscanner » Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:49 am

I'm one of the 10% and will not cross over to the 90 side. My non-lethal tools are deescalate, step back or step around the corner. Like spray they don't always work, but there is no pause to shake the can or check wind direction. If the other person continues to raises the threat level, plan "B" comes into play.

For police they need all the tools they can carry, lethal and non-lethal. They don't get to disengage, I do.

I have serious doubts about your percentage numbers, but no data to support my position.

Mike
The road goes on forever and the party never ends...


WildRose
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Re: Are Pepper Guns Legal in TX?

#22

Post by WildRose » Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:39 pm

ckr13 wrote:
Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:13 pm
WildBill wrote:To the OP, you don't say where you live, but you can always ask your local Sheriff or Police chief about the law.
I live in Texas. Pepper spray laws should be uniform throughout Texas and not vary city by city. I do plan on asking. I'd hate to get into trouble over pepper spray.
One thing you need to keep in mind is that pepper spray is only marginally effective at best. It will not stop a determined attacker and if they are already "altered" due to creative chemistry all it's likely to accomplish is to absolutely engage them.

The same is true for stun guns. Many a cop has been beaten to a pulp and a few killed after using the less than lethal alternatives on a suspect that would not stop attacking.

As a rule cops will not even attempt to employ the less than lethal measures unless they have someone backing them up with a firearm for that reason if the law and department/agency parameters allow for the use of deadly force at all.

If you have a genuine need for self defense weaponry of any kind you are far better off getting a handgun and getting well trained with it.
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TX LTC Instructor, Personal/Family Protection and Self Defense Instructor.
Without The First and Second Amendments the rest are meaningless.


WildRose
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Re: Are Pepper Guns Legal in TX?

#23

Post by WildRose » Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:41 pm

Jusme wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:58 pm
bakertaylor28 wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 2:55 pm
ckr13 wrote:
Thu Jun 09, 2016 9:27 pm
Since we are on the topic of vague "illegal" weapons: What is a bowie knife? I also recently bought a 9.25 total length knife (the Ka-bar 1258). I read the TX penal code and thought I was in the clear, but a friend pointed out the ambiguousness of a "bowie knife." :cryin
Actually, a "Bowie Knife" has a typical accepted definition- "a long knife with a blade double-edged at the point." Where the statute doesn't give a specific definition, terms get their ordinary definition in the dictionary. This is a common law rule imposed by the U.S. Supreme Court in criminal law.
Bowie knives, etc, are now legal. There are no more restrictions, on knives, except in certain places, schools, etc.
I believe that double edged daggers remain an unlawful weapon along with gravity assisted and switch blades. Anything resembling a "hunting knife" or Bowie however is now without restriction.
NRA Certified Instructor, RSO, CRSO,
TX LTC Instructor, Personal/Family Protection and Self Defense Instructor.
Without The First and Second Amendments the rest are meaningless.

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Flightmare
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Re: Are Pepper Guns Legal in TX?

#24

Post by Flightmare » Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:48 pm

WildRose wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:41 pm
Jusme wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:58 pm
bakertaylor28 wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 2:55 pm
ckr13 wrote:
Thu Jun 09, 2016 9:27 pm
Since we are on the topic of vague "illegal" weapons: What is a bowie knife? I also recently bought a 9.25 total length knife (the Ka-bar 1258). I read the TX penal code and thought I was in the clear, but a friend pointed out the ambiguousness of a "bowie knife." :cryin
Actually, a "Bowie Knife" has a typical accepted definition- "a long knife with a blade double-edged at the point." Where the statute doesn't give a specific definition, terms get their ordinary definition in the dictionary. This is a common law rule imposed by the U.S. Supreme Court in criminal law.
Bowie knives, etc, are now legal. There are no more restrictions, on knives, except in certain places, schools, etc.
I believe that double edged daggers remain an unlawful weapon along with gravity assisted and switch blades. Anything resembling a "hunting knife" or Bowie however is now without restriction.
House Bill 1935 from the last session removed all restrictions on blades. There are only "location restricted knives", which are prohibited in certain places.
https://legiscan.com/TX/text/HB1935/id/1624843
Deplorable lunatic since 2016

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Pawpaw
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Re: Are Pepper Guns Legal in TX?

#25

Post by Pawpaw » Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:49 pm

WildRose wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:41 pm
Jusme wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:58 pm
bakertaylor28 wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 2:55 pm
ckr13 wrote:
Thu Jun 09, 2016 9:27 pm
Since we are on the topic of vague "illegal" weapons: What is a bowie knife? I also recently bought a 9.25 total length knife (the Ka-bar 1258). I read the TX penal code and thought I was in the clear, but a friend pointed out the ambiguousness of a "bowie knife." :cryin
Actually, a "Bowie Knife" has a typical accepted definition- "a long knife with a blade double-edged at the point." Where the statute doesn't give a specific definition, terms get their ordinary definition in the dictionary. This is a common law rule imposed by the U.S. Supreme Court in criminal law.
Bowie knives, etc, are now legal. There are no more restrictions, on knives, except in certain places, schools, etc.
I believe that double edged daggers remain an unlawful weapon along with gravity assisted and switch blades. Anything resembling a "hunting knife" or Bowie however is now without restriction.
Sorry, but your belief is wrong. I carry an automatic knife every day.
Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence. - John Adams

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WildRose
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Re: Are Pepper Guns Legal in TX?

#26

Post by WildRose » Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:16 pm

Flightmare wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:48 pm
WildRose wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:41 pm
Jusme wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:58 pm
bakertaylor28 wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 2:55 pm
ckr13 wrote:
Thu Jun 09, 2016 9:27 pm
Since we are on the topic of vague "illegal" weapons: What is a bowie knife? I also recently bought a 9.25 total length knife (the Ka-bar 1258). I read the TX penal code and thought I was in the clear, but a friend pointed out the ambiguousness of a "bowie knife." :cryin
Actually, a "Bowie Knife" has a typical accepted definition- "a long knife with a blade double-edged at the point." Where the statute doesn't give a specific definition, terms get their ordinary definition in the dictionary. This is a common law rule imposed by the U.S. Supreme Court in criminal law.
Bowie knives, etc, are now legal. There are no more restrictions, on knives, except in certain places, schools, etc.
I believe that double edged daggers remain an unlawful weapon along with gravity assisted and switch blades. Anything resembling a "hunting knife" or Bowie however is now without restriction.
House Bill 1935 from the last session removed all restrictions on blades. There are only "location restricted knives", which are prohibited in certain places.
https://legiscan.com/TX/text/HB1935/id/1624843
Ahh, I missed that. Thanks.

Here's a good article laying it all out for anyone else.

https://knifeup.com/texas-knife-laws/
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TX LTC Instructor, Personal/Family Protection and Self Defense Instructor.
Without The First and Second Amendments the rest are meaningless.

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oljames3
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Re: Are Pepper Guns Legal in TX?

#27

Post by oljames3 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:08 am

I carry Sabre Red gel. We must each decide what works best for our personal and unique situation. I prefer to carry a less than lethal tool that fits in my self defense continuum between run-fu and guns. Pepper gel is just another tool and as such requires training to enable one to employ it to the best effect. I agree that the use of a less than lethal tool should be backed up with an immediately available lethal tool. I've trained extensively in using my handgun and competed in USPSA matches. I like having a tool I can use before I have to shoot someone. Works for me; may not work for you.
O. Lee James, III Captain, US Army (Retired 2012), Honorable Order of St. Barbara
2/19FA, 1st Cavalry Division 73-78; 56FA BDE (Pershing) 78-81
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