Why We Are Losing the Fight for the Second Amendment and What We Can Do About It

As the name indicates, this is the place for gun-related political discussions. It is not open to other political topics.

Moderators: Charles L. Cotton, carlson1


wil
Member
Posts in topic: 3
Posts: 108
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:37 pm

Re: Why We Are Losing the Fight for the Second Amendment and What We Can Do About It

#16

Post by wil » Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:00 am

Allons wrote:
wil wrote:
Allons wrote:
wil wrote:what can we do?

1. stop using the terms 'gun control' 'anti-gun' 'pro-gun'

2. use the proper term: 'civil rights' as that is what the 2nd is, a civil right. Secondly use the proper term for what they want, 'unconstitutional and hence illegal civilian disarmament' and 'unconstitutional and hence illegal infringement of our civil rights"

It is why the left uses the previously mentioned terms, to hide the truth of what the 2nd is and thier ultimate agenda and achieve the appearance of moral superiority in regards to their agenda.
By using the terms 'gun control' and other such terms it also forces us to engage the left in the culture war on terms of engagement they set. Those being they have the appearance of moral superiority, hence being right in thier claims, and ourselves being morally wrong in the truths we stand for. The result being it gives the left the political power to continually push the lie they use to cover thier real agenda.

Ever heard the saying: 'speak truth to power' ?

Power is achieved and maintained at the political level through deceiving the public via lies, "the big lie" as it is properly referred to. Speak the truth to that lie, as in this case, and it forces the advocates of the lie to defend it. Which they cannot do. Consequently the public begins to know the truth.
Wow! Never thought of using civil rights instead of gun control and you are right that does has power!
That is why the left use tactics such as this, which is alinski 101. People do not think through what is being done and why, these tactics being a predatory tactic designed to prey on the normal human instincts. Intimidation is likely the best word, people are afraid to respond due to not wanting to appear as being morally wrong for taking a position against the lies of the left. Consequently their inherent reaction is to attempt to defend against the accusation via logic, truth, etc.

They also function on the basis of people not wanting to admit to themselves that they were not thinking things through as to what these tactics amount to, and how to deal with them effectively.
Essentially people being fooled by the 'trap' these tactics consist of and not wanting to admit it to themselves consequently they attempt to respond in the usual fashion, attempt to defend against them rather than forcing the left to defend the lies.
As mark twain said: 'it's far easier to fool people than to prove to them they've been fooled'

A simple example "so when did you decide to stop beating your wife?"

What is an individuals immediate instinctual response? "I've never done any such thing in my entire life, ask my wife"

Therein is the wrong answer, why?

Because the accuser can now say: "PROVE IT, PROVE YOU'VE NEVER DONE SUCH A THING!"

The correct answer? "what basis of validity do you have for this question / accusation / etc?

Why the correct answer?

Because now it allows for the response of "PROVE IT, PROVE I'VE EVER DONE SUCH A THING!" regardless of whatever answer they give to your initial question.

Dont think this is what is going on?

"so when did you decide to become a racist?"

" so when did you decide to become an islamophobe?"

" so when did you decide to stop caring about public safety and argue against 'gun control' ? "

" so when did you decide to stop caring about less fortunate people and keep the people trying to cross the border who're just seeking a better life from crossing the border?"

"so when did you decide to not care about the less fortunate in our society and argue against the taxes we should pay to help the less fortunate?"

"so when did you decide to stop caring about the children?"

All of the std leftist accusations fit right into the very same format of the previous example as it is the same thing just using different accusations and / or different wording.

And without fail when people attempt to defend the truth because of the aforementioned reasons as well as an attempt to genuinely debate the left, it appears trying to defend a morally wrong position.

It is not a 'debate' we are attempting to engage in. A debate is simply an effort by two or more individuals to achieve a consensus of truth. What the left does, again, is to deliberately use our inherent desire to debate on a basis of logic, facts, truth, etc, to force us into defending against the lies of their accusations. It is why they use the previous example and why they've been so successful in forcing thier agenda onto us via the culture war.

Answering them with a question forces them to defend the lie of their accusation, which they cannot do.
The term for this is: 'the socratic method of debate.' It is real and it is the way to beat them politically and in the culture war, which is no more than winning the hearts and minds of the public which are still mentally and emotionally reachable.

That being hitting them with the socratic method of debate to expose the lies for what they are and discredit the left in the eyes of the public, also to help people not feel intimidated by the left.

the most recent and effective example of this is what Trump did the weekend the 'groping' tape came out.
It was the weekend of the second debate with hillary, Trump held a press conference that sunday and did something specific. Anyone paying attention to it will know what he did, why he did it, why it worked, and why it fits exactly into what I'm saying here.
Im not ashame to say that I definitely fall into the defend yourself first from the question. I really need to train myself to answer the question with a question. I know its a long road though.
It is a long road, both recognizing within oneself that they've been essentially 'fooled' by the tactics of the left and also to learn how to genuinely negate them.
It is one of the major mistakes I see happening on talk radio, essentially the left are hypocrites yet so many times I hear on talk radio "pointing out they are hypocrites does no good".
Wrong, it is the major weapon we possess against them as where talk radio is wrong on this is that has to be done publically in front of everyone. Trump calling the press conference on the weekend of the 'groping tape' being exhibit 'A' of this. After he did that press conference, what happened? The left never mentioned that tape ever again, there was a reason for that behind that press conference...
These things are why "The Big Lie" is so effective and why the left has been winning the culture war for so long.
Trump being elected is a sign things are changing however were our side to recognize the truth of how the left fights and what to do about it we would be in a far better position.

User avatar

Pariah3j
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 865
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 5:03 pm
Location: Webster

Re: Why We Are Losing the Fight for the Second Amendment and What We Can Do About It

#17

Post by Pariah3j » Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:56 am

If anyone hasn't seen it - I recommend watching Steven Crowder's "I'm Pro-Gun | Change my mind" 2 part youtube series he did a while back. It was eye-opening, and it gave me a smidge of hope. The basic premise is he sat down at a college, opened up a booth that had the sign 'I'm Pro Gun, Change my mind' and allows students to come up and have a sit down discussion/debate with him.

It gave me hope because even the more 'anti-gun' people I feel like most walked away less sure, possibly having had their mind changed at least a little. It made me very sad because of the level of idiocracy that was displayed about firearms, firearm statistics, and just general ignorance about the 2nd Amendment. But it proves that the problem with those calling for gun bans and stricter regulations don't know much if anything about guns and are taking the mass media's word for it.
"When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny" - Thomas Jefferson

User avatar

Flightmare
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 2379
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:00 pm
Location: Plano, TX

Re: Why We Are Losing the Fight for the Second Amendment and What We Can Do About It

#18

Post by Flightmare » Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:06 pm

Pariah3j wrote:If anyone hasn't seen it - I recommend watching Steven Crowder's "I'm Pro-Gun | Change my mind" 2 part youtube series he did a while back. It was eye-opening, and it gave me a smidge of hope. The basic premise is he sat down at a college, opened up a booth that had the sign 'I'm Pro Gun, Change my mind' and allows students to come up and have a sit down discussion/debate with him.

It gave me hope because even the more 'anti-gun' people I feel like most walked away less sure, possibly having had their mind changed at least a little. It made me very sad because of the level of idiocracy that was displayed about firearms, firearm statistics, and just general ignorance about the 2nd Amendment. But it proves that the problem with those calling for gun bans and stricter regulations don't know much if anything about guns and are taking the mass media's word for it.
I have really enjoyed watching those. There are some who he debates who are adamantly anti-gun and as others have pointed out, you likely won't change their minds. However he has had success changing the minds of people who were only fed information from the MSM. He even took a couple girls from UTD to Eagle Gun Range in Lewisville. He had them shoot pistols, an AR-15, and a 12 gauge with slugs. Afterwards one of them went thru the background check process to purchase a gun, just to see how thorough it was. After all was said and done, these 2 girls have moved significantly from anti-gun to more pro-2a. These are the type of people we're trying to reach.
Deplorable lunatic since 2016

User avatar

Vol Texan
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 1964
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:18 am
Location: Houston
Contact:

Re: Why We Are Losing the Fight for the Second Amendment and What We Can Do About It

#19

Post by Vol Texan » Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:28 pm

The Annoyed Man wrote: It’s quite another thing when you are speaking with someone who is a deliberately mendacious cretin, like a David Hogg or Shannon Watts - who are two of the most intellectually dishonest people walking the planet. I won’t waste my breath on people like that. It is their religion, and to even consider an alternative possibility is to become apostate......and they just won’t go there. In fact, they’ll react by comparing you to Satan and invoking all kinds of imprecations against your unholy kind. So don’t waste your breath. Instead, mark their locations on the map for potential future arty missions, and move on.
Now TAM...

I’ve met Apostate at some of our west Houston breakfast meet ups. He’s a great guy - and I don’t think you should be pickin’ on him like that!

:cheers2:
Your number one option for personal security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.
When those fail, aim for center mass.

www.HoustonLTC.com Texas LTC Instructor & NRA Pistol Instructor | www.Texas3006.com Moderator | Armored Cav. | Tennessee Squire

User avatar

Pawpaw
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 6490
Joined: Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:16 am
Location: Hunt County

Re: Why We Are Losing the Fight for the Second Amendment and What We Can Do About It

#20

Post by Pawpaw » Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:27 pm

Flightmare wrote:I have really enjoyed watching those. There are some who he debates who are adamantly anti-gun and as others have pointed out, you likely won't change their minds. However he has had success changing the minds of people who were only fed information from the MSM. He even took a couple girls from UTD to Eagle Gun Range in Lewisville. He had them shoot pistols, an AR-15, and a 12 gauge with slugs. Afterwards one of them went thru the background check process to purchase a gun, just to see how thorough it was. After all was said and done, these 2 girls have moved significantly from anti-gun to more pro-2a. These are the type of people we're trying to reach.
I watched and really enjoyed that video. He actually agreed to buy the girl a gun. She wanted, and picked out, a handgun. She filled out the 4473, but didn't do the background check. Since she's under 21, she couldn't get it. Both girls were surprised that buying a gun was not as easy as they had been told.

In the end, he promised he would still buy her the handgun once she turned 21, if she still wanted it. :thumbs2:

EDIT: Here's the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-l4s901oOUY
Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence. - John Adams

NRA Benefactor Life Member

User avatar

The Annoyed Man
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 25120
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:59 pm
Location: North Richland Hills, Texas
Contact:

Re: Why We Are Losing the Fight for the Second Amendment and What We Can Do About It

#21

Post by The Annoyed Man » Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:11 pm

Vol Texan wrote:
The Annoyed Man wrote: It’s quite another thing when you are speaking with someone who is a deliberately mendacious cretin, like a David Hogg or Shannon Watts - who are two of the most intellectually dishonest people walking the planet. I won’t waste my breath on people like that. It is their religion, and to even consider an alternative possibility is to become apostate......and they just won’t go there. In fact, they’ll react by comparing you to Satan and invoking all kinds of imprecations against your unholy kind. So don’t waste your breath. Instead, mark their locations on the map for potential future arty missions, and move on.
Now TAM...

I’ve met Apostate at some of our west Houston breakfast meet ups. He’s a great guy - and I don’t think you should be pickin’ on him like that!

:cheers2:
:lol:

Actually, under the right circumstances, I would engage with a mendacious cretin, IF i could stay calm enough to demonstrate to 3rd party onlookers that the cretin is irrational as well as wrong, and if so, then maybe get that 3rd person to give guns a fair shake.
Give me Liberty, or I'll get up and get it myself.—Hookalakah Meshobbab
I don't carry because of the odds, I carry because of the stakes.—The Annoyed Boy
My dream is to have lived my life so well that future generations of leftists will demand my name be removed from buildings.

User avatar

bbhack
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 298
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:34 pm
Location: San Antonio Area

Re: Why We Are Losing the Fight for the Second Amendment and What We Can Do About It

#22

Post by bbhack » Tue May 01, 2018 2:59 pm

Alinsky Rule #5
"Ridicule is man's most potent weapon."

It's effective, but not as a substitute for dialog when the "enemy" wants to talk.

The Right is using Alinsky quite well against the left. Not that those are tactics of first resort, but when they are used against you, you learn quickly.
No Trespassing Violators Will Be Prosecuted

Post Reply

Return to “Gun and/or Self-Defense Related Political Issues”