Should you draw your weapon to help a LEO?

[Winston]

IMO probably not. You never know when the officer will have backup coming and if you're standing their with a gun in your hand you might end up having a really bad day. It all probably depends on the situation but if I saw an officer wrestling with a suspect and it looked like he was in trouble then I would most likely choose to help him but I would yell and ask first before approaching the situation. It could also look bad if the officer had a suspect on top of him and backup showed up with you also looking like another suspect on top of the officer. A lot of situations will look pretty sketchy and you might end up looking like a bad guy if you don't approach the situation carefully. With that said I think most cops should have partners with them at all times so these types of situations are less likely to happen.

If you do decide to help an officer in a bad situation then I suggest doing it without your weapon. Call 911 and make sure backup is coming and that you want to help the officer. Then I'd probably ask the officer if he needs help and if he says yes then I'd just run up and soccer kick the suspect in the face! Then I would back off and see what happens next. Hopefully at that point the suspect will be knocked out or out of conscious enough for the officer to take control of the situation and get the cuffs on him. If the situation involved firearms and a shoot out then I would just find cover and hope backup shows up in time to save the officers life and take down the shooter. I wouldn't risk confusing the situation by firing my weapon. Unless I knew that I could take that suspect down with one or two shots and be able to lay my weapon down on the ground before backup gets there. This way I wouldn't look like a threat after the fact! If not you would probably look like another shooter and get killed! That's just my 2 cents but every situation will be different and acting in the moment will be a hard decision to make no matter what.

[Grundy1133]

IF a LEO was in a losing battle and was yelling for help, I'd do what I could to help him or her. I'll just leave it at that.

[WildRose]

The subject of helping a cop comes up sometimes, and while I don't want to open that can of worms, I am wondering under what circumstances you, as an LTC holder, could draw your weapon to assist a cop who is in trouble, and fire it, if it was the only way to resolve the situation.

Say I'm driving or walking along and encounter a cop struggling - and losing - with a enraged 300 pound thug, or maybe two of them. Well, boys, at my age (pushing 70, arthritis, double rotator cuff tears, etc.), I'm not the Five Fingers of Death I once was.... So I can't just walk up like Terminator and toss them around like rag dolls. What are the implications of me drawing down on the assailant(s), and, if that doesn't work, firing?

If it were me or another person in that same situation, I would be justified. If the victim is an LEO, it would seem even more justified, as the assailant(s) would probably be trying to grab his weapon and thus create even more danger.

Summarily: you encounter a cop being overwhelmed and beaten to a pulp by a thug. You're not capable of intervening physically. After quickly calling 911, you draw your concealed weapon, tell the thug to back off, and if he doesn't, you fire. Is that a viable scenario? Input from LEOs and legal eagles would be especially useful.

Legally the same rules would apply as any other self defense scenario. In this case it would be self defense of a third person. If you have "reasonable fear of imminent death or grave bodily harm", you can lawfully draw your weapon.

The problem is more one of the tactical situation. Before stepping in you'd better make your presence known to the LEO and that you are there to help. Even at that you run the risk of him/them shooting you and if they do, they will be protected by their limited immunity unless it's a blatantly unlawful act on their part with video evidence and witnesses.

Over the years I've assisted cops in trouble 3 different times but never had to fire. I was able to do so with confidence only because the LEO's involved knew me very well and knew I would back any of them up anytime.

Under any other circumstance you are putting yourself at great risk so use your very best judgement before intervening.

[WildRose]

IMO probably not. You never know when the officer will have backup coming and if you're standing their with a gun in your hand you might end up having a really bad day. It all probably depends on the situation but if I saw an officer wrestling with a suspect and it looked like he was in trouble then I would most likely choose to help him but I would yell and ask first before approaching the situation. It could also look bad if the officer had a suspect on top of him and backup showed up with you also looking like another suspect on top of the officer. A lot of situations will look pretty sketchy and you might end up looking like a bad guy if you don't approach the situation carefully. With that said I think most cops should have partners with them at all times so these types of situations are less likely to happen.

If you do decide to help an officer in a bad situation then I suggest doing it without your weapon. Call 911 and make sure backup is coming and that you want to help the officer. Then I'd probably ask the officer if he needs help and if he says yes then I'd just run up and soccer kick the suspect in the face! Then I would back off and see what happens next. Hopefully at that point the suspect will be knocked out or out of conscious enough for the officer to take control of the situation and get the cuffs on him. If the situation involved firearms and a shoot out then I would just find cover and hope backup shows up in time to save the officers life and take down the shooter. I wouldn't risk confusing the situation by firing my weapon. Unless I knew that I could take that suspect down with one or two shots and be able to lay my weapon down on the ground before backup gets there. This way I wouldn't look like a threat after the fact! If not you would probably look like another shooter and get killed! That's just my 2 cents but every situation will be different and acting in the moment will be a hard decision to make no matter what.

Having been in the situation myself let me offer a suggestion.

Your safest move would be to approach from behind, put the attacker in a choke hold, wrap your legs around him and hang on for dear life.

The cop will figure out who's side you are on instantly and respond accordingly.

[Winston]

I wish I could do that but I personally have a rule against grappling with anyone on the street if I can avoid it! I've done some wrestling and jiu-jitsu training and don't believe in it as an effective form of self defense if I can avoid it. Yes it's a good self defense to learn but on the streets it's a last resort martial art in my opinion. I've trained more in striking martial arts rather than grappling and wrestling throughout the years. Especially Kali martial arts and would resort to using my karambit or any knife to avoid being submitted by a threat. I feel that this is the safest thing for me to do if someone tries to assault me on the street because I've trained what to do in those situations. If they try to take me down or submit me then I'm confident in my ability to defend myself with a blade. I would rather back up, retreat, or even run away then to grapple with somebody outside of a gym. lol. But if I do get into that situation and forced to grapple with an attacker and they get the upper hand they still won't be able to take the knife out of my hand very easily without getting some serious cuts to their wrists and arms. It will become a bloody fight and hopefully they will stop or retreat after x amount of blood loss from the slashes. I would mainly attack the wrist and arms since that's what most attackers need to attack someone but also wouldn't hesitate to deliver more devastating blows if I felt my life was in danger.

Plus I know that I'm better at striking and avoiding take downs than I am at grappling. I'm not too bad at grappling but I don't trust my abilities with grappling if I were to get into a fight for my life. I would never try to choke someone out because the technique could get reversed and I might end up being the one choked out or in serious trouble. With that said a lot of people are very good at it and I wouldn't knock them for using grappling, wrestling, or jiu-jitsu techniques to defend themselves. Especially because it would be a less lethal form of self defense. Choking someone out or breaking a limb wouldn't be as harmful to the attacker as striking or using a blade. The chances of them dying are not as high. But for me striking or knife fighting are my go to self defense techniques if I have to fight at all since I've trained those techniques longer. Which is why I avoid fights to begin with at all cost! Grappling is fun but it's not a good self defense for me personally. Especially because I carry weapons. My weapon could end up being used on me if they get a hold of it. Plus grappling never really works out well with multiple attackers.

The last thing I'd ever want to happen in a street fight is for someone who is stronger and bigger to out wrestle me in a fight. That could be the end of me since it's not a sport when done on the streets. Choke holds are great to subdue an attacker but so it knocking them out with strikes! If I was to help an officer by kicking the suspect then I'd really be surprised if the guy wasn't knocked out cold afterwards. Especially if the threat took one or more of my kicks to the head! Plus in that situation you could also deliver more strikes since the attacker would be busy grappling with the officer. I would definitely let the officer know what was about to happen before doing that of course. If he agrees to let me help then I would strike hard and fast to incapacitate the threat. This is also why when I see officers punching suspects it doesn't bother me at all. They should've not resisted and complied with the officers demands. The officer is just doing what's necessary to gain control of the situation at that point. I've seen some videos of police wrestling with suspects and almost getting their gun taken. They need to start training with knifes and CQC training as a backup from using their firearms. These situations usually happen very fast and up close and personal. That's just my philosophy on self defense but some may feel differently. It sounds brutal but I'm not willing to risk my health or life grappling with anyone on the street no matter what the situation is at the time. Constantly backing up and using counter strike techniques is always a better option than getting into a wrestling match in my opinion. Especially with a bladed weapon. And if that doesn't work to deter threats from harming someone then that's when firearms need to be used to put those threats down permanently.

[Ruark]

I can think of one situation I experienced that led to me asking this question. A couple of decades ago, I lived in Amarillo, TX, a block off of Amarillo Blvd., which at that time was one of the wildest streets in the country. There must have been 2 to 4 "lounges" per block, all of them packed with half-drunk cowboys and laborers.

One Saturday evening I was cruising down the blvd. and saw a cop attempting to subdue a BG in a parking lot. The cop didn't look very big, and the BG was a BIG, muscular guy, no shirt, sweaty and built like Schwarzenegger. The cop was trying to get some kind of neck hold on him to bring him down to the ground, but the BG was just too big and strong. He looked like he could have killed me in about 5 seconds.

No carrying back then. But I remember thinking about going over to help him, but how? Maybe hit the BG with a crowbar from the back of my truck or something....?????? Fortunately, right about then, the cop's backups arrived and took the gorilla down.

I've sometimes wondered what I would do if I were in that same situation today. Walk up and point my 9mm at the BG? Thoughts?

[sugar land dave.]

I am an older gentleman who prefers to negotiate points of contention, but if someone is about to ambush or through other action has an officer in imminent danger, I am announcing myself and the bad guy can decide his fate.

Because of life expectancy, younger folks will have a tougher decision than me. I'm old and law abiding; I will protect other law abiding especially officers. They do it for us and if needed I will return that lawful service on their behalf.

Could I live with myself if I did nothing to stop the threat and the officer died or suffered serious injury? That is what this is about. You have my answer.

[WildRose]

I wish I could do that but I personally have a rule against grappling with anyone on the street if I can avoid it! I've done some wrestling and jiu-jitsu training and don't believe in it as an effective form of self defense if I can avoid it. Yes it's a good self defense to learn but on the streets it's a last resort martial art in my opinion. I've trained more in striking martial arts rather than grappling and wrestling throughout the years. Especially Kali martial arts and would resort to using my karambit or any knife to avoid being submitted by a threat. I feel that this is the safest thing for me to do if someone tries to assault me on the street because I've trained what to do in those situations. If they try to take me down or submit me then I'm confident in my ability to defend myself with a blade. I would rather back up, retreat, or even run away then to grapple with somebody outside of a gym. lol. But if I do get into that situation and forced to grapple with an attacker and they get the upper hand they still won't be able to take the knife out of my hand very easily without getting some serious cuts to their wrists and arms. It will become a bloody fight and hopefully they will stop or retreat after x amount of blood loss from the slashes. I would mainly attack the wrist and arms since that's what most attackers need to attack someone but also wouldn't hesitate to deliver more devastating blows if I felt my life was in danger.

Plus I know that I'm better at striking and avoiding take downs than I am at grappling. I'm not too bad at grappling but I don't trust my abilities with grappling if I were to get into a fight for my life. I would never try to choke someone out because the technique could get reversed and I might end up being the one choked out or in serious trouble. With that said a lot of people are very good at it and I wouldn't knock them for using grappling, wrestling, or jiu-jitsu techniques to defend themselves. Especially because it would be a less lethal form of self defense. Choking someone out or breaking a limb wouldn't be as harmful to the attacker as striking or using a blade. The chances of them dying are not as high. But for me striking or knife fighting are my go to self defense techniques if I have to fight at all since I've trained those techniques longer. Which is why I avoid fights to begin with at all cost! Grappling is fun but it's not a good self defense for me personally. Especially because I carry weapons. My weapon could end up being used on me if they get a hold of it. Plus grappling never really works out well with multiple attackers.

The last thing I'd ever want to happen in a street fight is for someone who is stronger and bigger to out wrestle me in a fight. That could be the end of me since it's not a sport when done on the streets. Choke holds are great to subdue an attacker but so it knocking them out with strikes! If I was to help an officer by kicking the suspect then I'd really be surprised if the guy wasn't knocked out cold afterwards. Especially if the threat took one or more of my kicks to the head! Plus in that situation you could also deliver more strikes since the attacker would be busy grappling with the officer. I would definitely let the officer know what was about to happen before doing that of course. If he agrees to let me help then I would strike hard and fast to incapacitate the threat. This is also why when I see officers punching suspects it doesn't bother me at all. They should've not resisted and complied with the officers demands. The officer is just doing what's necessary to gain control of the situation at that point. I've seen some videos of police wrestling with suspects and almost getting their gun taken. They need to start training with knifes and CQC training as a backup from using their firearms. These situations usually happen very fast and up close and personal. That's just my philosophy on self defense but some may feel differently. It sounds brutal but I'm not willing to risk my health or life grappling with anyone on the street no matter what the situation is at the time. Constantly backing up and using counter strike techniques is always a better option than getting into a wrestling match in my opinion. Especially with a bladed weapon. And if that doesn't work to deter threats from harming someone then that's when firearms need to be used to put those threats down permanently.

I get you point and respect it but let me offer this.

You have no guarantee that any strike will leave the attacker unconscious, dead, or unable to continue the fight unless you crush their skull.

Killing with a knife or blunt object requires a coldness and level of commitment few people in the modern era are capable of. It is a truelove gruesome act to engage in. I've done both as part of my duties while serving but I already had that level of commitment and the mindset to do it.

Keep in mind that all you have to do is apply a choke hold wrap up, and hang on for 15-30 seconds and the subject will be dead or unconscious and the second it's applied they will disengage from the grapple with the cop as a an natural reaction to clear their airway.

No matter what you do in such a situation you are putting yourself at a substantial risk.

I have seen many documented cases of citizens intervening to save a cop and been involved in two of them myself and I have yet to see one of them go bad for the defender.

At worst you end up a hero in the community, a few cuts, scrapes, and bruises, and every cop you meet for the rest of your life will be forever indebted to you for saving a "Brother in Blue".

The smaller the jurisdiction, the better well known you are the lower the risk.

For example, every LEO in our county and those bordering it knows me and knows they can count on me if I ever come across such a situation which of course is always to your benefit.

Like any other defense of a 3rd party, there are most certainly grave consequences for you personally so consider them all before ever considering doing so and use your best judgement. Personally I'm just wired such that I can't be a passive observer or go on about my business when I see others in trouble. It's just not who I am or ever could be.

[WildRose]

I can think of one situation I experienced that led to me asking this question. A couple of decades ago, I lived in Amarillo, TX, a block off of Amarillo Blvd., which at that time was one of the wildest streets in the country. There must have been 2 to 4 "lounges" per block, all of them packed with half-drunk cowboys and laborers.

One Saturday evening I was cruising down the blvd. and saw a cop attempting to subdue a BG in a parking lot. The cop didn't look very big, and the BG was a BIG, muscular guy, no shirt, sweaty and built like Schwarzenegger. The cop was trying to get some kind of neck hold on him to bring him down to the ground, but the BG was just too big and strong. He looked like he could have killed me in about 5 seconds.

No carrying back then. But I remember thinking about going over to help him, but how? Maybe hit the BG with a crowbar from the back of my truck or something....?????? Fortunately, right about then, the cop's backups arrived and took the gorilla down.

I've sometimes wondered what I would do if I were in that same situation today. Walk up and point my 9mm at the BG? Thoughts?

Downtown hasn't improved any, it's still the busiest place in town every Friday and Saturday night for the PD. One of my best friends runs a gun shop on S. Georgia and it's still like Ft. Apache.

[jordanmills]

Make sure the cop asks you for help first. TCP 9.51.

[tbrown]

I won't get involved in an altercation between strangers unless I know who is the good guy and who is the bad guy. If I saw what lead up to the fight, that might be enough. However, the way people dress is not enough to prove to me, beyond a reasonable doubt, who is the aggressor and who is the victim. There's too much personal risk (physical, legal, financial) to jump in where angels fear to tread.

[srothstein]

Make sure the cop asks you for help first. TCP 9.51.

TPC section 9.51 does not require the officer to specifically ask you for assistance. In addition to the defense of a third person statute, you can use 9.51(b). This allows any person to use force to make a lawful arrest, especially if there is no reasonable way to manifest your intentions first. The manifest your attentions means telling the person he is under arrest and for what. Given that a fight is going on at the time, I would say you cannot reasonably manifest your intentions.

So can you make the lawful arrest to begin with if the officer does not ask for help? Sure. Remember that any citizen has the authority under section 14.01 of the Code of Criminal Procedure to make an arrest for a felony or a breach of the peace that occurs in his presence or view. A fight with a police officer might be a felony (aggravated assault on a police officer) or it might be a misdemeanor (resisting arrest) but it is always going to be a breach of the peace.

I know how I will react and that is to jump into the fight, probably not using deadly force to start. But being a retired officer, I think I can still use my knowledge and skill to help subdue a person. Obviously, this depends on the situation and there are some where it will go right to shooting.

But I do not recommend you jumping in to help fight unless you know something about it to start. And if you are not medically or physically capable of that part, do not get yourself hurt trying it. Go ahead and draw, but please remember about the round going through the right person sometimes. be careful about getting to close so the BG can grab your firearm or knock it out of line too.

And if you do see something like this, please get someone to call it in to 911, either while you are trying to help the officer, which ever way you decide to help. Get the cavalry on the way. You will be pleasantly surprised how nice it is to hear sirens approaching when you really need them, and unpleasantly surprised how long that will seem to take.

[ScottDLS]

And you will also be glad to have your CHL Badge when the "cavalry arrives"...

Seriously though, the main reason I carry is to defend myself and my family. But if I saw someone being violently assaulted and was in a position to help by virtue of the fact that I was armed, I think I would. Sure I'm going to call 911, but I'm not just going to stand there and watch someone potentially get killed. Yes, you have to be sure that you have a grasp of the situation...maybe the "cop" is a criminal in a fake uniform and the person beating him to death is an undercover DEA agent....

[WildRose]

Make sure the cop asks you for help first. TCP 9.51.

TPC section 9.51 does not require the officer to specifically ask you for assistance. In addition to the defense of a third person statute, you can use 9.51(b). This allows any person to use force to make a lawful arrest, especially if there is no reasonable way to manifest your intentions first. The manifest your attentions means telling the person he is under arrest and for what. Given that a fight is going on at the time, I would say you cannot reasonably manifest your intentions.

So can you make the lawful arrest to begin with if the officer does not ask for help? Sure. Remember that any citizen has the authority under section 14.01 of the Code of Criminal Procedure to make an arrest for a felony or a breach of the peace that occurs in his presence or view. A fight with a police officer might be a felony (aggravated assault on a police officer) or it might be a misdemeanor (resisting arrest) but it is always going to be a breach of the peace.

I know how I will react and that is to jump into the fight, probably not using deadly force to start. But being a retired officer, I think I can still use my knowledge and skill to help subdue a person. Obviously, this depends on the situation and there are some where it will go right to shooting.

But I do not recommend you jumping in to help fight unless you know something about it to start. And if you are not medically or physically capable of that part, do not get yourself hurt trying it. Go ahead and draw, but please remember about the round going through the right person sometimes. be careful about getting to close so the BG can grab your firearm or knock it out of line too.

And if you do see something like this, please get someone to call it in to 911, either while you are trying to help the officer, which ever way you decide to help. Get the cavalry on the way. You will be pleasantly surprised how nice it is to hear sirens approaching when you really need them, and unpleasantly surprised how long that will seem to take.

I'm the same way, cop, civilian or anyone else I'm just not wired to be a passive bystander or to ignore it and go on about my business as though I saw nothing.

Of course before you attempt to intervene you'd better have a good enough read on the situation to distinguish between the good and bad actors involved.

Of course if it's a uniformed LEO, that gets a whole lot easier as with the case in Chicago recently.

[Ruark]

Here's an interesting article that relates specifically to this topic:

https://www.sensibleselfdefenseblog.com ... rs-of.html